To the post that talked about 'Barefoot' water skiing.

He is referring to a 'deep water, long line start'. you plane pretty quickly, and can ride on your butt, then, feet in and stan up when there's enough speed.

When you do a start while going backwards, you take a deep breath, flip on your front side, feet on the rope, and they hit it. You drag face down, but when you arch your back, you get a small pocket where you can breath a little, until you get your feet in and get up.

I've gone off a boat twice. Neither time did I get separated AFTER a capsize.

The First, sailng with Dean Pakune, in Galveston Bay. The harness hook on my old prindle harhess had opened up enough over the years, and while double trapped, I went off while skippering upwind.

Wouter,
I HAD hold of the mainsheet, and I guarantee your grip is no stronger than mine. When I hit the water I basicallty stopped, the boat keept going, flying a hull, but now only Dean was trapped, looking back with a shocked look on his face. He leaned back as I held on for a split second, which even sheeted it in further, and it ripped out of my hand, (deathgrip). It slowly capsized, and I swam back to it, it was not nuclear conditions.

The second, I was crewing in the 2007 Great Tx 300. It was fairly nuclear at the time, kite up going about 17-20. I went to trap out, and although I thought I was hooked in, even gave it a tug, I went in the water and quickly away from the boat doing nearly 20. Luckily, Corey drove down, got the kite down, and turned back towards me. He was several hundred meters off and I had to swim to the area where he was going while pinching it up slow.

If I would have been tethered then, I probably could have 'barefooted ;-), while Corey drove.


The times I've done GT300, although they require a 'tether' to be onboard, I don't remember using it.

As has been said, by Chris and others, unclipping a 'quick' release under a big load, would prove to be nearly impossible.

So, if it is impossible to hold onto the main while being towed what would it be like if you had been tied on and the boat was still as insistent at dragging you through the water? Might there be occasions when this might drown you? Could you even be trapped under the boat under water by the tether?
A tether is one more bit of cord I won't be introducing as I have my life vest on at all times and a VHF and whistle in my smock when sailing distance. Hell, the tether getting caught might be the very reason you flip in the first place.

Over here is carrying a whisle and a flare are compulsory and fellow club members do remind everybody to carry them when they don't.

Also the GPS cell phone has as good as completely replaced the VHF transmitter. Many carry these on their lifevest as well. Is there a reason why this is not the case in SC ?

Wouter

I was talking about singlehanding the boat. When you step of them and hold onto the mainsheet the boat will typically flip somewhere over the next 10 seconds. If you have a crew still hanging on the trap after you dropped off then yes I can see the boat just powering along. But in that case the crew is still on the boat to retrieve you. And if he can't because the conditions are too harsh then the crew was out in conditions above their skill level.

Still having said all this, I have done the "hold on to the sheet" in many situations and conditions and it worked for me. And I have been dragged along too. Of course I have typically sailed lightweight boats where the position of the crew weight is pretty much what keeps the pointy side up. Things can be different for "inherently stable" I-20's or whatever. I have also gone of without the sheet in my hand however, when the crew was trimming the boat but I've never got seperated fully from the craft. In my case my 90 kg body frame stepping off pretty much garantees the F16 going over, even with my 65 kg crew on the trap line. In those cases I have swam to the overturning boat like a madman and have always reached it in time. This as reflection of that other point in my posting; swimming like hell on your heels when ever you hit the water.

Personally I see your experience as another indication of why not to be thethered to the boat and why it is so important to have a skilled and experienced crew on races like the Tybee 500.

Fair winds,

Wouter

Some observations and thoughts...

Awhile ago I had started a thread on this topic because of some events I had experienced. I came away with the feeling that being tethered for one of those incidents might have led to injury.

I went off the back of our N-20 while driving downwind in the Annapolis-Oxford race. Alec was trapped and locked in with the chicken lines. Winds were around 20 and we were honkin'. Wave just popped me up and over the back I went. I had a grip on the mainsheet and held on for split second before that was ripped from my hand. Alec had issues getting back on the boat due to it starting to turn (throws your balance off). The boat ended up turning downwind, depowered, and with Alec still on the trap it capsized to windward. In the small amount of time it took for the capsize to happen a decent distance had been put between me and the boat. Once Alec had it together and started to right it, it was making pretty good time on its side. There was no way I could possibly swim to catch it.

I started to consider the idea of clipping in to the mainsheet hearing people mention the "it will sheet the boat and cause it to capsize" - but when you're going full tilt downwind the sheet and traveler are in anyway. And it then occured to me that if there is slack in the tether when you go over you could get hurt when the slack goes away and the force of a 400lb boat going 20 is transmitted to your body.

That having been said, the idea of being separated from the boat didn't sit too well either.

The other case was when a crew trap broke going upwind in biggish conditions. I'm not sure what would have happened if he was tethered, but the boat wasn't going as fast and I had control of the helm. As it was I was able to circle back and get him, but that also pointed out that safely getting to a COB in rough conditions can also be dangerous. Even parked the boat moved a speed that made it difficult to swim to, and getting close enough can set you up to hit the person in the water.

An additional one I know of is an A-Cat sailor that got separated from his boat during a regatta, the committee didn't know it, and he ended up swimming a decent distance to shore.

So, on the tethering side there are three cases:
1) Somebody falls off the boat upwind
2) Somebody falls off the boat downwind
3) Boat capsizes

You could probably add two additional factors - whether it is the crew or skipper that falls off.

I think on the whole, tethered or not, the likelyhood for a good outcome it increased if it is the crew that falls off, especially upwind, and that the danger of injury is much less.

I think the speed and power of the spin boats makes it potentially dangerous to be tethered if you fall overboard downwind. With somebody at the helm the danger is reduced. If the helm falls off, risk is higher.

In the case of capsizing, the normal slowish over she goes type being tethered would not be as much a safety issue and could keep you safe by not allowing separation. I think the regatta rules consider this case in specifying the length. The violent no warning capsize/pitchpole is a different story - by the time you come to your senses you might be in trouble. But with a longish tether you still may be better off with it. But I'm also not certain that with newer designs that happens as often, so there's a question as to whether that case happens enough to negate benefits in other cases.

I have started to think about using a short tether for helming downwind in the rough. Using the big boat idea of tethering to stay on the boat. You won't get dragged, but you better have conditioned thought to pop the thing off in a capsize. Again, this would only be used for the helm, and I have yet to actually try it (I'm not %100 percent convinced).

Once somebody is separated there are two things to consider:
1) Can you act quickly enough to stop the separation from increasing.
2) If you can't accomplish #1 can you safely stay in contact with the COB.
3) Can you safely retrieve the COB.

#2 speaks to people carrying radios, GPS, and signal kits (whistles, small flares, etc.) on their person.

We've started to carry COB throw bags for these cases. It may be possible after a capsize for a crew still with the boat to throw a line to the separated sailor. It can also be used for retrieval in that once the boat is righted the singlehanded sailor only needs to get close enough to throw the bag/line. It would seem that two would be preferrable, one stored under the tramp for a capsize, the other on top for a COB, but two may be a little overkill (certainly adds weight).

So, in the end as for the original question, should they be required? I don't know. It would be nice for a system to evolve that answers the concerns and optimizes benefits while mitigating the risks. Then having that required would be ok. Other than that it should be something recommended, and the sailors should think through the scenarios and plan for how to deal with each. The boats have changed, and the best answer may be several answers - one for each situation (upwind, downwind, skipper, crew, etc.).

Note that all of this is geared towards races where you need to fend for yourself. In a bouys race with a crash boat you can rely on for help, don't take the risk a tether may invoke. If you're on your own balance the risk of being separated with the risk of the tether.

LOL... thats one heck of a dissertation (1017 words)...

I was going to ask, are you a lawyer but i read your profile.... Lawyer, Spacecraft Service... what’s the difference? (kiddin)

I was going to hijack this thread and ask what kind of flares everyone carries, but i will start a new.

Just a follow-up as I had a chance to experiment this weekend; I missed my trap and went off the boat in double-trap conditions Saturday. I dropped the stick grabbing for the handle, but retained the mainsheet. I had a very good view of my crew trapping hard to keep the boat up as I dragged along behind. The boat heeled up pretty high and then started to round up - the crew did a great job of coming off the trap just as the boat flattened out. As we decelerated, I was able to reel myself to the rudder just as we passed head-to-weather in a pretty clean roll tack. I sent the crew to the new high side of the boat to keep it flat while I used the rudder as a foothold and popped back onto the boat. I moved up the tramp, collected the stick, sheeted in and we were off again while the crew gathered the mainsheet and traveller tail that was still off the low side.

I was off the boat about 5-6 seconds, I would guess - certainly less than 10. I was able to see what was happening very clearly and was prepared to release the mainsheet if it seemed I needed to. Still being in contact with the boat allowed me to feel how it was reacting as well, and the slowing as it rounded up was obvious. Roger Jenkins did an outstanding job as crew and we had a fair dash of luck, but I think that hanging on the the boat saved the flip and clearly kept us in the race. As we got resettled, I was laughing pretty hard. I said I hoped someone had seen it - Roger said he hoped nobody had. I think I'll add a clip to my harness to run the mainsheet through and try it out.

All that said, I think a rule requiring a tether is inadvisable.

John, do you remember what Chris Sawyer's hand looked like after his trap hoop broke on the leg to Tybee in the '02 Worrell?

Yep - I also remember he ignored advice about multiple wraps around his hand. When he was ready to let go, he couldn't. Lesson learned. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

well, he disregarded the #1 rule... have solid trap loops!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (I HATE those plastic things)

What I was getting at was had he not had it wrapped there was NO way he would have been able to hang on. Even with all the wraps, he couldn't hang on and mangled his hand. They were clocking 25 +/- mph when he hit the water. Unless he was tethered in a very secure way he was going to get seperated. Now, think a/b being tethered in that situation... 25 and acting like a drogue... no fun. air=good <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

From Scuttlebut and Sailing Anarchy

An experienced sailor was ejected in a round up and managed to survive in open ocean following resuce by another race boat.

Here is a statement on tether's

From Roger Marshall:
Interesting read on the Santa Barbara race overboard scenario. The ladies were very fortunate. Readers might want to be aware of some research I did a couple of years ago for my book Rough Weather Seamanship. We towed a swimmer on a lifejacket harness at various speeds and found that at speeds over 4 knots the swimmer can barely keep his/her head above water. At six to eight knots the bow wave created by the person came over his head and he had great difficulty breathing (we stopped the test at this point!). At this same speed the drag of a person in foul weather gear is so high that two crew could not drag that person up to the boat and out of the water. When a boat is sailing at twelve to sixteen knots, it will be almost impossible to get a person back aboard. This leads to two conclusions, first, use lifejackets without a harnesses for high speed sailing or end jacklines far enough forward that, should a person go overboard, they can still hold onto the rail. If they end up a full tether length behind the boat, they may be drowned before the boat can be stopped.

This scenario does not sound logical. If there are crew members still on the boat, they would not be trying to retrieve a dragging man with the boat still going at speed. Wouldn't they immediately stop the boat?

The main danger would be if you are the ONLY person on the boat and you fall overboard and are being dragged and have no way of stopping the boat.

I do like the idea of having the tether anchored far enough forward so that if you fall off, you are still alongside the boat and can maybe hold onto a footstrap or push over the tiller to round the boat up or make it capsize or whatever, in order to stop it.

Hi Mary

I think the worry is that in a monohull you have all this sail up and you can't stop the boat or drop sail quickly enough. In the story, the boat was knocked down and stayed down... but she was still trucking...all be it on it's side. The remaining crew could not recover their second crew member and stop the boat at the same time.

My point was to put some numbers to idea that you could be tethered to a cat at speed.

On big monohulls, you are on a pretty short tether, that is running on a jackline fore and aft, so you can't really fall very far -- just be hanging off the side of the boat.
Doesn't really relate to small boats.

That's why I liked the idea of, on small boats and cats, having the tether fastened forward so you can't end up dragging behind the boat.

And I don't agree that you can't get any sailboat, monohull or multihull, to round up and stop really fast, no matter what sails you have up.

When I learnt to white water raft they taught us that when you get hold of a rescue line, roll on your back so that you paravane up not down. When I was getting pulled out after grabbing hold of the rescue line from the bank, the last words I heard were on your f?@#$^& back gurgle, when I came back up after rolling on my back, they were still swearing I nearly pulled them all in with the water pressure on my front but they were able to retrieve me on my back.

Geometry problem:
Figure out a way to have a long enough tether to be able to trap with your foot on the rudder while keeping it short enough to stay along side the boat if you "fall" off.

- Don't think it's possible.

Shafer did it on the Tommy Bahama boat by having the tether free to move on a guide that ran from the front beam to the aft, and from port to starboard as I recall. The tether, which attached to the trapeze harness only had to be long enough to stand. From the water, the stern of the boat was still in arm's reach.

Hello all,
If anyone know the whereabouts of Dean Pakune, please let me know! NO, he's not missing, I'd just like to talk to him again, I haven't been able to reach him for at least 20 yrs.
Last I talked to him, he was on the West coast of FL somewhere's, working for Sears I believe.

Anyone know Dean?

I see a chicken line, like what Shafer had (and we use), and a tether as different things. The prusik knot on a leader strung between beams works well to prevent waves from knocking you off the boat while on the wire...but we don't stay hooked into that when sitting on the deck or tacking/gybing. I try to configure mine with a quick release so you can get out of them in most situations. It's use is a little different than what monohullers commonly think of as a "tether" but perhaps if the OAs see them as a similar item we might find some common ground.