Bill, Thanks for the input - I never actually pitched it while using the spin. The quote was just something somebody told me to reinforce that I should never, ever, release the main sheet when a gust hits - as in it's better to take other consequences than to break the mast (a fellow in our Fleet lost his Mystere 6.0 mast this way this past year). I actually found that the boat had less tendency to stuffing the bows when the spin was used.
The "stock" set up for the 18 used an 11.5 foot pole, the max people told me that would be trouble-free was 13.5, maybe 14. I set mine up so I could experiment, starting with 12.5 with the capability of moving fittings to get 13.5 if I wanted. I wanted longer length to move the spin forward and reduce the chance of closing off/backwinding the rest of the sail plan, but was worried about incurring lee helm. 12.5 seemed to work real well, no vices helm-wise. Unfortunately the boat got hit before trying out the 13.5 setup...
Keith, Why do Hobie, Prindle, Nacra, etc owners have to "EXPERIMENT" and work all of this spinnaker related stuff out for themselves? I would call it poor product support. Prior to the I20's use in the Worrell, I went over to the Holiday Inn at Jensen Beach and took a look at the boats. I had never seen so many Rube Goldberg, poorly thought out, spinnaker pole rigs before. Some of those boats needed alot of help. Now most new beach cats have gone to spinnakers and many of the older boats want to upgrade. Why do the factories not come out with well done spinnaker kits for their boats that did not come out with spinnakers in the first place? It would be a source of income. Our beach cat factories and the beach cat sailors would both benefit from well done programs. As far as satisfactory working geometry goes relative to spinnakers there is a sweet spot fraction on the cantilevered part of the mast for the spinnaker halyard where mast breakage does not occurr. There is a sweet ratio between mast height and spinnaker pole length where the spinnaker tends to lift the bow more than make the boat pitchpole. Good luck with your spinnaker and your spi pole is too short. Bill
Spinnaker use on cats has only become widely popular and accepted in what? the last 10 years or so? This is due largely in part to the Worrell. Most of these manufacturers that you blame for 'poor product support' have already made a substantial number of boats and have established substantial classes since before the spinnaker really became popular on a cat. In the interest of not further diluting the classes already estabilished, these manufacturers choose instead to maintain the existing boat configurations to the benefit of strict one design racing. I think it's not poor product support but it's a carry over from the 70/80's marketing philosophy with an attempt to maintain the bigger picture: product placement in the market.
However, we're now seeing a transformation in the industry with the dilution of the classes to the point where one design and classes are becoming less important to the sailors to some degree. As a result of this, we are now beginning to see the manufacturers make more options to supply the widely varying desires of the sailors. The Hobie 16, 18, and 20 has a spinnaker option, Performance Cat's 6.0 now has a factory spin option, and we're seeing 17' boats from several manufacturers with sloop, uni, two up, one up, spin, and no spin all in one platform. The days of the manufacturer trying to maintain control over one design racing are fading.
As to the sailors with the Rube Goldberg designs, God love 'em. I'm probably one of them. It is through experimenting and refinement that new and easier ways to do things come about. Rube believed that there were two ways to do things: the simple way and the hard way, and that a surprisingly number of people preferred doing things the hard way. I believe that through sometimes doing things the hard way, I learn more, and an easier way becomes more obvious.
Jeff I have followed the posts and wanted to let you know I have a complete ARC 22 rig available for sale. I sail a 22 and thru a series of events acquired an aluminum mast completely rigged from the factory. In addition I have an oversized Calvert main, oversized Smyth jib and a stock Smyth chute that I can "package " together for you if interested in any or all. I have changed to a carbon mast and dont have any need for the extras mentioned above.Let me know if you have any interest.
I clocked one on our lake at 18 kts with the chute up in 18-20 true. Why do you want to go faster? That boat is already pretty darn hot, I think the other poster said it correctly. "Get yourself a cat man!!"
Good luck with your spinnaker and your spi pole is too short.
Perhaps. See pic. The boat sure felt right, and given that I had decided to not do the dolphin striker thing, this is as long as I felt comfortable going given the comments I had gotten from others who had added a spin to these boats.
Good point on why certain boat types owners have to experiment. In my case it was simply a matter of wanting to try something on the cheap. I new I wanted to trade up from the 18 to another boat, so a big expenditure for new kit didn't fit my plans. I'd rather spend that money on another boat! I wasn't looking for the perfect set-up, but I wanted to learn what was involved and experience sailing a spin cat without worrying about busting up a new boat. Hobie does sell kits for these boats, but I'm not confident they're "right" - witness the short pole.
Poor support - true, true. I'm currently trying to get some info on spin set-ups for my H-20. I've found more people that have done it to this design, but info again is from roundabout type sources. It would be great to simply get a guide form Hobie, and some kind of feel for how the boat works with what they are selling.
But more to the point for me - the tinkering was almost as much fun as sailing the boat afterward! Learned a bunch. It might have a junkyard dog look in some ways, oh well.
Inspiration for the whole 18 thing came when I came into the posession of a windsurfer mast. Sure looks like a spin pole to me...
Search for a sail turned up a Hobie-18 SX spinnaker in great shape. The hard part truly was trying to find ANY information on how a stock Hobie-18 spin should be rigged. Halyard height? Sheet location?
I deduced the measurements from a variety of hints and sources. I went with a longer pole than "stock" again with the option to try longer.
Anyway, the one thing I did know for sure (from sailing sailing and inspection) is that sheeting point needed to go forward a bit from the pole being longer.
But - Hobie does sell kits for their boats. It's just that there is no OD racing for them, so people will be just as tempted to experiment as to buy the kit. I decided to experiment...
I've found that most of the Rube Goldberg's I see have only opted for these homemade contraptions because they feel they can do something as good as (or better) than the manufacturer much cheaper. In some cases this holds true, but I would say that those instances are the exception rather than the norm.
Yes, there are plenty of examples where it would appear that the manufacturer is overpriced. Still, who put in the man-hours for design and construction? Only when economies of scale come in does the return on investment become positive and prices drop... but I'm not an economic's major, either!
Hi Waterbug, My point is that it doesn't cost any more for the parts to do it right than it does to do it wrong. Some of those early Worrell spin rigs had so many struts, they looked like 1950's TV antennas. When they break, nothing costs more than doing it over again and you blew that leg of the race or that weekend. That is why it is important for the factories to have a well engineered system and then sell kits. Bill
Jeff, What your trying to do is interesting. The issue is how automatic you will need the rig to be.
Speaking from skiff experience and zero knowledge of the ARC range. Skiffs are much more tender than any cat. I suspect this will also be true of your sports boat. One sport boat (Boatspeed 23?) down here is a filled (the hull is extended to the end of the old rudder gantry) in 80s 18teen with short wings 3 on trap and a number 3 18teen rig).
Cats have a higher inertia and you may find you stagger rather than accelerate. (Im not putting ARC products down here). I know there are some 18teens in california and perhaps they have "old" rigs available. Alternatively you can pick up rigs from the 18teen teams in Au cheaply. They are designed for mast heard kite forces without backstay. I believe the sticks are now being made by CST (composite spars and tube in Sydney amongst others). These rigs also flex under kite loads and thus automatic downwind as well.
What I would be inclind to do is get a rig designed for the boat. Wont be much more expensive than purchasing a new ARC rig. You will get better balance for the boat in the end. Measure everything the rig designer will need everything you can provide. Which ever way you go expect recutting, thus get a sail maker who has interest in your specific project. If possible find one close who will come out and both crew/skipper and visit the boat.
I know where you are coming from, I am one to experiment on boats. I put a N5.8 rig on a N5.0 with 10' rack for the Ruff Riders years ago. The concept was fun, but needed more boat for the horsepower. I think what will happen is you have an extremly overpowered boat. The boat can only handle so much power and then heals over. The only time you will go faster is in real light air and off the wind. Then the trick of sweeping the shrouds aft and out enough to handle the loads, with double backstays. I am not sure if the ARC rig can handle the weight difference of the boats. The Viper is light, but it carries much more momentum than a cat. As rigger with racing and cruising experience on cats and monos, one realizes the loads each of the boats provide. I am thinking about adding amas, my P-19, on my Merit 22, an old MORC design. There would have to be some upgrades on the rig, but the idea is basic. I am interestered in your idea and if you go through with it, please keep me posted...
