I would love to see foiling get developed, if only to find out what type of foils/installations would be both faster and cheaper, then maybe that technology could migrate to a few other classes, sort of how the spinnaker/snuff setup did and the square tops sails and wing shaped masts. It won't happen over night but it's got to start somewhere.

If I were King, I would have the A class split into two fleets, all out, anything goes type foils to encourage developing the 'best' way to do it, and no flying at all for the guys who don't want to fly. I think the Moth class did that for awhile too, when they started foiling didn't they?

Eventually, I would expect a better/cheaper/easier/more stable foiling setup would evolve and once it did, more guys from the non-foiling A's would make the transition to foiling.

If an installation is developed that could easily modify a floater into a flyer, (by simply replacing the dagger trunk) that would help make the transition faster and more affordable allowing more of us poor people into the flying class.

Back to a design type question that got me thinking when I started this thread, once you get a boat up onto foils, does hull shape or water line length matter anymore? What would a new, fully foiling A cat look like? I would think the designers would try to come up with something that would get the hulls up out of the water asap, so the real design work would be in the foil itself, and controlling it easily and consistently, to stay up on the foils the entire race, like the (fast) Moth guys do.

As far as which class rules need to remain, vs. be changed, I guess the two most important factors would be sail area and minimum weight, I don't' know that beam and/or hull length will matter as much once you develop foils that will keep the boat out of the water most of the race. What if there was just one class called, "Foiling Cat" class, where a foiling A would race straight up against a Phantom and a foiling N20. We would quickly see what's faster. Hey wait, what about a foiling Optimist?! Then you could have two classes, the Optimist and the Pessimist!

Ever since I saw the first flying Moth, I've been saying all we need to do is connect two of them side by side and put a mast in the middle, presto, flying cat! Will a full foiling A cat eventually look something like that?

Closest thing to it is the Stunt 9 - http://www.s9team.it/home.html

I was at the meeting, so have a pretty good grasp of what was said and although what was leaked to FB and then put on SA might not be what Bailey is saying now, what was said at the meeting is EXACTLY what Bailey is saying now. I'm assuming SA is where many got their info and it's not accurate(big surprise).Mark you're wrong in your interpretation, again big surprise, and if you want to have input that counts, you have to pay your class dues and VOTE, otherwise you're just blowing smoke and it's really getting old.
Big +1 to Mike Krantz's above post. If you want to come play, come play, we'd love to have you.

Thanks Mike! That is exactly what I had in mind, I can't believe we haven't seen this here in the USA yet. I crunched some numbers from the website, it's only 13.5 feet long, weighs about 170lbs. Costs about $17,000. US Dollars (15,500 Euros).

In their description they talk about the wand system of foil adjustment so the skipper can concentrate on sailing vs. moving the foil around.

And they say they have straight boards for kids and a shorter mast for high winds. Is there a class of these racing in Europe yet?

For about the price of a Wetta, you could be flying one of these instead. Can I race it in the full foiling A cat class? It would measure in, right? It's shorter and weighs more, so it wouldn't be 'outside' the A class rules, would it? If it doesn't exceed any A Cat box rules it should be (foiling) class legal... right? For less than the price of a floating A, you could be foiling!

ISAF rules prohibit the use of wands/active controls. The Moths get around this by specifically overruling ISAF in their class rules. So until ISAF changes their rule, it is not legal under any other class and the Stunt 9 can only race one-design in their own class.

Thanks again, are there many of these Stunt 9's out there yet? I wonder why it hasn't caught on over here yet? I was thinking about a Moth until you talked me out of it, but this boat seems to solve the 'sink or swim' issue the Moth suffers from, and it costs about the same as a Moth!

One 'negative' thing I read on the S.9 site, it says it needs 6 knots of wind to foil, and 8 knots to foil upwind. Which has me wondering just how well it points. I remember a few years ago when the C Class was experimenting with foiling, they said they couldn't point as well once they got up on the foils.

Have they found a solution to that? And if not, how about simply changing the race course to a more foil friendly course, like a trapezoid or such? Start on a broad reach, go like hell, make a left around a mark, go downwind, gibe, go like hell again, make another left, then one short upwind leg back to the start line, do it again.

buy 2, i'll drive down all the time to race ya

Talking about how well a boat points is really pretty useless in my opinion. Yes, when foiling the angle relative to the true wind will very likely be greater than when not foiling. This is because the apparent wind nearly doubles and the angle changes significantly. What you really need to think about is VMG.

I've sailed a moth several times, and trust me, it goes upwind just fine!

Actually Todd, I read Bill Howards post on face book thanking the class for just flushing his 28K investment down the tubes.

Had nothing to do with the Sailing Anarchy reaction..

A very interesting thought, Mark. Which might help explain why handicap systems suck.. Consider this hypothesis:

Sailors who didn't originally "buy in" to the concept (and purchased yachts outside of a particular class) who now want the "social contract" advantages (class racing) and want the "socialists" (those adhering to said social contract) to bend for their whim(s).

These socialists, in the spirit of cooperation, attempt to incorporate these outliers while balancing a semblance of fairness (through the handicap rating).

Further, some outliers may seek to capitalize (herafter referred to as "capitalists") on this handicap system's inherent weakness (accurate data/ratings) to dominate the social contract they have been allowed access to.

Does this perpetuate socialism or capitalism? hmmmm.....

OH GEEZ.... Why do you bait me???

How can I resist a debate equivalent to the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin?

The premise of your argument is that the capitalists demand entry into the socialist game is not reality.

The analogies to our ugly history with the Hobie edict is not accurate.. The one off or dead boat society boats were NOT asking to start with the Hobie 20s in their socialist race... They were asking to increase the size of the pie by adding another start to the regatta. The capitalists were delighted to look down their nose at the backward socialists and play with their state of the art toys (spins and lifting foils) This worked well and then Hobie CA exercised their monopoly with control of the Organizing authorities aka the Yacht clubs and turned down your request for a handicap start. The socialist feared the allure of the capitalists sexy hot toys. The capitalists simply took their game to a competing socialist organization... the regions blue blazer Yacht clubs and their game continued.

Your argument that the capitalists are rent seeking by gaming the handicap table has merit. Capitalists always look for areas with asymmetry in information. A new design is a perfect example of how you can exploit this asymmetry and collect some pickle dishes. The only solution is a transparent measurement based handicap system that can adjust to new facts on the water with an adjustment to the formula on an annual basis.

In the real world... the socialist are forced to drop out of their failing social structure and join the capitalists in their handicap race, all be it with a very dated ride. I conclude that the eternal dialectic between socialist an capitalist will continue and the world is better off with this dyanmic in play. The socialists enjoy their fun factor until they can't... the capitalists accept the socialists joining them and giggle as they take advantage of the asymmetry in information and rack up some pickle dishes at the expense of the socialists.

To see this in real life... visit Key West and watch the J70 guys party with the PHRF national championship equivents on the PHRF circles.
Grin

Yes, it is a slow day here (on the forum and the office )...

But the socialist/capitalist was meant to draw out those folks on the drill/Muslim thread (which is pretty dumb thing to do, but ...)




Or give every participant a trophy. Seems to work for youth soccer (I think I threw up in my mouth...)

Lot's of fishing going on here. Sure you guys don't want to post on this forum instead: http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/

After years of urging I am finally writing another book. This time I have a ton of guest authors covering almost every nook and cranny of our sport.
And really excited about a pretty lengthy chapter on foiling.
Glad this thread popped up.
Rick

Hey Rick, I'm reading one of your books right now - the ASA 114 cruising multihull book.

When my course instructor ordered it and it arrived I opened it and was like "I know that guy!"

We sailed it at TFW at Lake Garda about a week and a half ago, it was a fun little boat. Will post more in a bit.

Foiling is a fad.

I don't know about that Dave...looks like even the lead haulers are getting into it, check out this video of a 'foiling' ocean racing mono, at about 1:25 the whole boat comes out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3on5CYbZP4