Ding, you make some good points, and have some great ideas on how to move forward. I'm not a political guy, so spare me the excuses. Let's get something that works, and implement it.

Mike

Options are:

a) ask Hans to go through SCHRS to establish a number (which he probably wouldn't want to do - knowing him a little bit, I suspect he's not really that concerned with it)

B) ask Hans to look at the SCHRS tables and recommend a number. Convene a three person group of sailors that won't be competing directly against him, consider his recommended number/justification, and come up with a reasonable number to use.

Lastly, I don't think Hans will be overly concerned with the arithmetic behind the scoring.

Tru-dat. I had to send in PHRF measurements to the committee at least 60 days prior to needing the certificate (for a regatta).

If I did show up out-of-measurement (like a new sail not measured) I could be protested out of the race, or go Corinthian and take the hit based on any sail design change from the original PHRF cert.

the measurement options I had to complete were somewhat onerous (not just I,J,P numbers, but spin mid-girth, foot length, mast to sprit, blah, blah, blah) but I was able to measure all that stuff myself (the cert was online and described how to take each measurement)

But there is a pretty stark difference! Jay, the certificate process you are talking about is for a relatively serious boat that cost a pretty penny when compared to a 15 year old Prindle 18-2. You just can't expect the guy that spent $1200 on his entire boat to go through a two month certification process (possibly involving the cost to have stuff measured) to get a piece of paper that he really doesn't care about. I would rather assign the guy a rough handicap number and have a better chance that he shows up to a regatta every now an then instead of making it MORE difficult for him to do so.

Craig
He is going to have to weigh the boat and measure the sails at the minimum. It's the OA 's call if can do the honor system or you require an official measurement from an ISAF measurer.. (eg Carla Schiffer)

Alternatively...Jake's Plan B. Guestimate a SCHRS hard rating for the Gcat.. and let him race with that rating. (Its the same as using Portsmouth for a one off boat.... except that it will be the Florida 300 rating... not a US Sailing Portsmouth committee rating) Again... its the OA's call. You have to balance the fleet interest versus the individual sailors interest.

You have to remember... US Portsmouth requires a Fleet of Gcat 5.0s to have competed against other yardsticks... This is probably not the history of the G cat rating... so.. Modifying the rating of a gcat with cookie cutter corrections is a bit silly. You are strictly into PHRF world now... where your committee does its best.

In reply to Jake.. I agree, there is no harm in a handing a guy a stiff rating PHRF guestimate for a non one design configuration of a boat he just bought. Now... if goes out and gets a new non OD sail.... You can ask him to have the sailmaker measure the new thing and report those numbers.

As always... it's the OA who balances the interests of the fleet versus an individual sailor.

That right there is a real world post! Craig, I'm happy to help and if you need me to present something to the board I'm happy to do that too. This really isn't that complicated or costly to the participants. We just need the board to be willing to try something different and they have clearly demonstrated that they/you are there for the sailors so I don't think it will be that difficult to sell.

Thank you for stroking my fragile ego, Jake. To consider me "relatively serious boat" and inferring the same about my racing ability is enjoyable.

But yes, the $75 cost for the PHRF cert was a bit bothersome. At least I could measure (with the instructions) my own stuff (and get some off the OD specs when it was built in 2006) to save that money.

Still, if you're going to "race" you can't expect to do it at no cost.

They don't call racing "standing in a cold shower tearing up $100 bills" for nothing... Sailors are a parsimonious lot, but c'mon...

In Hans' case I think he's got all the specs you need (and probably could come up with his own SCHRS or DP-N number) but the dude with a frankenboat one-off probably would overwhelm the measurer at the regatta?

Like if Randy shows up with Scissors and wants you to come up with a number for him... (yeah, that's probably a stretch...)

I do appreciate the comments from those who help out with OA and measuring. To see that you are willing to do that much for someone just to get them out on the course is admirable. It still makes me think the sailor is being a little lazy in that respect (not getting a rating prior to showing up)... especially if they actually are wishing to win...

Isn't there a measuring/rating system somewhere in Europe that uses weight/sail area/hull length/beam/mast height measurements and then some math, to come up with a theoretical speed?

This ain't rocket surgery, it's basic physics, seems to me any good marine architect should have a formula for speed predictions using the basic measurements of weight/sail area/ hull length.

After that, it comes down to the 'quality' of the hull design/sail design and most importantly, the crew sailing the boat!

I'll be Pete Melvin and most other boat designers knows the 'speed formula' why don't we just ask them?

US Sailing was talking about a program to certify measurers at one point. That would help alleviate OA work (regatta resources) while adding a level of fairness if we do find a workable measurement-based system.

Mike

SCHRS isn't rocket science and waiting for some kind of USSailing certification for measurers could be a long wait. Also to hint that SCHRS isn't workable demonstrates a lack of understanding.

http://www.schrs.com/measurements.php
http://www.schrs.com/rules.php
http://www.schrs.com/downloads.php

Lead, follow or get out of the way! I think a general that was difficult to manage said that.

measurers? At least 95% of the numbers already exist in SCHRS based on the known sailing classes. This isn't PHRF - we're not a bunch of rich a$$holes trying to find loopholes in the measurement system to gain a 30 second advantage on the other guy who also spent $350,000 on his boat and pays a crew. Let's not fix a problem that doesn't exist. We don't need measurers for beach cat racing. We just need a decently representative handicap number and a system that can accommodate the occasional frankenboat while also being able to integrate new boat designs.

If you are trying to get an additional 3% of accuracy out of a handicap system, you're doing it wrong. No handicap system will be close to that kind of accuracy. I would expect most handicap systems are, at best, 90% accurate when just considering varying conditions.

" We don't need measurers for beach cat racing."

True... you don't NEED a measurer... but if you are a non technical sailor.... would it be worth some cash to get your sails measured and your boat weighed when you get your sailmaker to build a new set of sails for your Hobie 21?

A nationwide list of small cat measurers would be a nice resource to have.

AND the USA could generate ratings for the unique north american classes like the Isotope via an honor system of their owners.

Moreover, the SCHRS committee would be delighted to accept certificates from qualified and certified measurerers to add to the official table.

Um, yeah. Maybe you should read some of that before spouting off at me.

Those rules, echoed by comments here, speak to the requirement to measure and grant ratings for non-production boats (and new boats). Several cat sailors here have voiced concern with the resource load this would place on organizers.

Doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that all systems have weaknesses with non-rated boats. They all have strengths, and to be workable means that it will be widely accepted and respected, and not seen as another difficult program. Hopefully, SCHRS can clear these hurdles.

I offered a solution, not an excuse, and didn't mention any specific system. Not sure how that led to your comment.

Mike

I don't know if I'd go that far.... I've seen some really crazy sail shapes that appear to take advantage of the very moderate DPN hit for oversize or fathead?

And could a foiling boat be considered a "loophole"? The N17 wasn't originally considered a foiling boat, and the AC Rule last iteration was designed to eliminate potential foiling, correct? (but we all know how that worked...). And then that Chupacabra sail on the T boat at the China olympics (had that thing worked in those conditions, imagine the sh*tstorm it would have caused)

As far as spending clams on boats, I would posit that beachcat racers are slipping down that slope as we speak... With the exception of some venerable classes (H-16, Wave, etc) I can't think of any new boats in most of today's fleets that cost under $30k...

So why wouldn't an enterprising sailor/racer pick up a cheap-o N5.5 or Dart and "turbo" it up? or add a Spin/Screecher to a non-spin boat. I think that would benefit the sailor far more than the DPN hit would indicate on paper, right?

with all of today's technology (like those chips runners use on their shoes, Kattack, RaceQ, smartphones, etc) you'd think it would be straightforward to automatically record time/distance on race courses, continuous weather/water conditions and upload that data nation/worldwide to adjust both design speeds as well as individual skipper handicaps...

Would be a fine example of crowdsourcing. Toss a few Google or high school nerds at parsing out the data, a few statisticians to set up confidence parameters, and Dr. Evil to head up the program...

I make it sound so easy... which is why I'm still poor.

Sure, but let's look at the reality of that "rule beater" situation. In most cases, the "rule beater" scenario is only a function of a poorly derived rating and not a sailor trying to work the system. There ARE cases where some sailors have put a boat together with the intent of winning a handicap race by working the rating system. I expect that if I knew all of the cases this happened that I could count the occurrences in the last decade easily on one hand - it's very rare. While this is certainly undesirable I look at this way 1) That person is spending a ridiculous amount of effort to win a handicapped race. 2) if it matters that much, he can just take all of the $ winnings.

PHRF is a completely different animal. There are a lot more boats with wildly varying configurations being managed by people who might actually win something or have a large enough investment / ego that they wish to win at all cost. The occurrence of the "rule beater" attempts is much more prevalent under PHRF and the whole thing even generates it's own politics. We are not in that situation. The significant majority of our boats are raced to a one design configuration and only a very small % of them are being modified and customized (and an even smaller percentage are being modified and customized successfully).

The other situation is where we get a new boat / configuration and there is some debate about its rating. IMHO, the rating, if not derived strictly from a parameter/measurement based system, should lean on the stiff side until proven otherwise. That has been our recent failing in that the provisional ratings have been issued as a pretty soft number making it easy for the new design to win. While the guy that owns the new shiney boat with the soft rating is smiling, he really wasn't the guy lobbying for that number (I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here).

With regards to foilers, I've said it before; it's silly to try and race handicap with a foiler against a displacement boat. The capabilities are so wildly different in varying conditions that you can't assign any reasonable number to define the capabilities between the two boats. It would be like trying to assign a number between a J22 and an F18. Trying to race those two boats against each other is silly. The J22 is fast in light air but quickly falls off as it hits hull speed at around 6.5knots. The F18 has a completely different set of capabilities in wind and water conditions. By the same token, there is no reasonable way to rate and race a non-foiler against a foiler.

Handicap racing is what it is - it's never going to be perfectly accurate. We just need a system that is reasonably accurate and has a system to update to accommodate new boat designs and have simple modification factors. IMHO, there is not enough money involved or cheating taking place to justify a national measurer system.

Then do it Jay! Stop talking about it and just do it! Nobody is surfing the internet looking for something that is a lot of work for 0 return so... it's on you buddy!

Correction, the SCHRS committee would be delighted to accept certifications (period). Qualified and certified measurerers, says who, USSailing? Give me a break Mark. Seriously look at the damn site, look at the diagrams, if you can read a tape you can measure a beachcat including the sails! For f#@$ sake you don't even have to do the math there is a spreadsheet for that! WHY do we go out of our way to complicate and over think EVERYTHING!

No one said the measurers HAD to be certified. ROs don't HAVE to be certified either. But, there is perceived value amongst the sailors, and it's one more benefit that we can get from US Sailing.

I know that certification alone doesn't make you a good official, so let's not go down that rat hole.

Mike

So if folks who don't have a DPN already plug in their measurements into SCHRS system and get a number, is there a way to convert to DPN?

As to the new handicap system initiative, I'll have to look in to how you effectively crowd-source things... Maybe it's already on the RaceQs and Kattack apps?