Wow. Wow...wow.

I will have more intelligent comments later because this has me stupified at the moment (that and that everything is covered with 2 inches of ice here in northern South Carolina). I agree with Tracie in that it will be interesting to see how this plays out on the local level but if it is forced as threatened, through leverage of insurance, points championship, support, etc. it will be the death of NAHCA (or the Hobie Class Association - whatever). I am somewhat inspired that the decision appears to have come from Hobie 'the company' using financial leverage instead of from NAHCA folks themselves. Perhaps NAHCA can keep their name and let the "Hobie Cat Association" race only Hobies once the ramifications of this edict are realized. Does Hobie have any idea what the actual local racing scene looks like? Why don't they realize that the mistake "made 10 years ago" to support X-boats actually aided the survival of NAHCA, it's strong class racing, and kept the Hobie logo out front this long!? They're committing suicide if they actually enforce this thing and I can't believe this silliness has actually come up again! Where does that leave Spring Fever (a sanctioned Hobie regatta) and the countless other Hobie regattas? I'll tell you...It leaves them searching for another blanket support organization.

It is ridiculous that it's come to this, and we never intended to compete with NAHCA, but the great news is that NAMSA is still kicking and is ready to support anybody with more than one hull who has a desire for sailing, racing, insurance, saving your launching facility, or any other service that an organization 'by the sailors, for the sailors' can provide.

Tracie,

Denying attendance at North American Championships is one of the possible penalties that HCA is considering. There was talk of legal action against anyone using the Hobie trademark name, logo, etc. in any of the regatta advertising. So if those X-class were allowed to sail, LEGAL action could be taken against the fleet and Division (note the 1 year phase in period for those boat-skipper combinations sailed prior to Sept, 2003).

Ken

Wouter,

It was stated by the IHCA president that other mfg. cat's are not allowed at Hobie regattas anywhere else in the world.
This X-class thing only exists in the United States.
Is this your experience in Europe? How about other areas? Australia? Is this IHCA mandate only affect U.S., as other areas already comply, or is there a world wide effect here?

Ken

As you know Rick 99% of the regattas in the southeast do not involve the HCA (NAHCA) and we get along just fine without them. We have been finding our own sources for insureance for years. If NAMSA can button up the insureance thing then we are in great shape, I'd even say we are in better shape than the HCA.

It's as if the HCA is acting like OPEC but, we have already switched to alternative fuel sources.

See you soon,
Dave

This is not the first time that Hobie Cat Co has declared war on the rest of the catamaran racing community. They tried to destroy CRAM & other open fleet clubs in the early 80's. I think it only made us stronger. We're still here & division 10 has been reduced to Wednesday night races on Austin Lake. Unfortunately, Hobie Cat Co has been successful in keeping Hobies from racing with us. We could be a much stronger organizations if the Hobie racers in our area would turn their backs on Hobie Cat Co & come sail with us. We have always been & continue to be open to all beach catamarans from Dingo's to RC27's.

USSailing has an insurance program which CRAM has used for several years. They call it the Golden Anchor program. It provides discounted insurance rates for sailing clubs. I expect that clubs could redirect their NAHCA dues to Golden Anchor insurance and come out even. At the very least Big Brother would not be watching their every move.

TIL,
That is interesting about CRAM. Back in the 1980's when we were racing a Hobie 18 in Division 10, I know Division 10 sailors went to several CRAM regattas every year, and we had the CRAM events listed on our Division schedule.

But just recently I asked a Hobie sailor up there why they do not join CRAM now, and he told me Hobie sailors get negative vibes from the CRAM sailors, like disparaging comments about Hobies, and pressure to get a different kind of boat.

Mary
Do you really believe that?
I checked out CRAM & Hobie Flt. 276
I was told by Flt 276, If I didn't have a Hobie I couldn't even day sail with them.
But Stan Hall over at CRAM didn't seem to care what I sailed. Just bring the family out for a great weekend.
Ted

Ted,
No, of course, I don't believe it. We know lots of CRAM people personally. I'm just telling you what one person said and what he is saying other people said. We haven't been up there for a while, and sometimes things change. I was just fishing for a CRAM response to that accusation -- and I got it. Thanks.

Interesting.

I found it hard to write something that didn't sound harsh. Sorry it if this is heavy-handed.

I find it laughable that open class racing is the reason for the demise of Hobie Fleets in America! It sure couldn't be products that have not been kept up to date. It sure couldn't be that Hobie USA is apparently incapable of developing or updating anything that is not roto-molded.

I'm guessing that the only thing that has kept catamaran racing/sailing Fleets alive in the US are the open fleets.

And sure, if it's Hobie one-design then obviously only Hobies sail in that class. But given the sorry state of the sport, the "buy our boat or you can't play with the Fleets" model seems kind of out of date and stupid. And yes, I appreciate Hobie is in business to sell boats. But as participants what is important to us is that we enjoy our purchases, feel good about what we bought, and not have the regret of being a pawn in a company's "master plan".

How about helping to increase the number of sailors in the sport, then displaying some leadership in product development and quality that shows well in comparison to other products and gaining sales that way? You know, good old market competition. Nah, if we simply ban the other boats at regattas and strong-arm Fleets (can't even do fun sails????) then people will have to buy ours!

And, of course, if you happen to sail an older Hobie that does not fit anymore in the Hobie Way Of Life, you must now buy a NEW(er) Hobie to race or go to the other non-Hobie scum Fleets.

In our area, the only real interest in racing Hobie products seem to be the 20, and so far that's from a non-NAHCA perspective. People have been looking more at the model provided by the New England 6.0 guys. I don't know of anybody itching to buy a 16. Tigers might be an option, but the 20 footers and A-Cats are starting to rule, and in the 20 foot range it's 6.0s and Inter-20s and then H-20s. The A-Cats are starting to win over some dinghy converts. I can't imagine having the growth we've had if we told 'em all to buy new Hobies. Nobody's that interested in them. Why is that? Open class racing? Don't think so...

So, what if there was a Hobie Regatta and nobody cared? NAMSA could step in here. Provide a championship structure for the classes, so somebody could still be a Hobie-16 class champion without ever having raced in a HCA event. They could stand on the podium next to the Hobie-18 champ and Inter-20 champ.... Clubs that are facing problems because of mixed boats could just not be a Hobie-sanctioned Fleet anymore, recognize the class within their Fleet and NAMSA, send results to NAMSA for a national ranking.

Notice my tag, all Hobies and a keelboat. Yet, now more than ever, I feel even less inclined to ever to go Hobie sanctioned Hobie One Design racing.

But, this much is also true - if you race a Hobie, you will always be welcome at my Open-Class, Non-Denominational, X-Boat-lovin', tainted by non-Hobie boats catamaran sailing Fleet. We like having more sailors. We don't belittle folks for what they sail. If the boats are worth it, people will buy them.

I wish Hobie luck, the catamaran market has been theirs to lose. They seem more bent on the latter sometimes. To some this might just sound like a desparate bid to blame somebody else.

Ken,

Now before I get flamed (By others), I volunteered and worked on the Hobie nationals 2001 race committee so I'm NOT a Hobie hater and I've seen things up close from the water as a counterstart vessel/rescue boat.

Apart from the Hobie nationals we simply don't have Hobie events in (greater) NL (UK, NL, Belgium). Neither in Australia if I'm informed correctly. The racing scene here is almost exclusively handled by an national organisation for all cats (like NAMSA) and the clubs do their own thing without accepting much meddling from any builder or even some high minded class organisation. At clubs in the Netherlands they will be laughted out the door. In May we'll have a 1-up cup here in NL with singlehanded Dart 18's, I-17's , FX-one's, A-cats and a few F16's. Of the 25 to 30 boats competing ONLY 3 are FX-one. There are NO hobie 17's. This gives some idea of the weight hobie puts in the scale.

Another telling example; 2003 Dutch Hobie Tiger nationals attracted 7 boats ! Of which Gerard loos is a paid crew with a supplied boat. The (yeary) event REM race 2003 at my own club attracted double the amount of Tiger crews. The locations are spaced 15 miles apart.

Pretty much all Tiger crews in my (larger) area will FAIL the tiger one-design rule. They have after market sails or different blocks or have have a non hobie corp tiller or even some non-hobie shackles on their boats. maybe they used non-hobie approved gelcoat to touch up a repair ? Most are not seriously interested in the Tiger class; only in the F18 class AND open class racing like Texel.

That X-classes don't exist in Europe or Aus is technically true since all significant regatts ARE open class (even in France and Germany) and I can't name even 1 Hobie point regatta for my area of North West Europe. We are one big X-class just like the round texel. Start together, race together, finish together and split out the results to class and a single overall open class.

This X-class thing is a US thing as we don't have a comparable scene in the EU and AUS. So your statement "This X-class thing only exists in the United States." seems like a fair statement to me.

>>Is this IHCA mandate only affect U.S., as other areas already comply, or is there a world wide effect here?

The hobie classes would be dead within the year if they tried something like this in my area. Tiger class would be dead within the week. They would ALL choose F18 over Tiger class. And like I said earlier Hobie class would make itself redicioulus by such a stunt.

The hobie 16 class is the ONLY hobie class overhere that means ANYTHING at this time and even that is going. All other classes are non-existant. H17, TheMightyHobie18, H20 are so dead that they aren't even allowed to start on their own Hobie nationals since 2001. Fox and FX-one have to start with Tigers as they are even fewer in number. The H14 guys have split off and hold their own yearly championship away from the class. Australia is very comparable to NL, UK as well.

I think pockets are holding in Germany and maybe France but the important events like Carnac Eurocat, Round Isle of White, Archipelo raid. Texel and such are all open class events. I don't think anybody will cry at all over missing one or two relatively unknown Hobie point regatta's.

Now I don't know the IHCA intentions or plans with regard to Europe or Australia so I can't comment on :

"Is this IHCA mandate only affect U.S."

However, there is absolutely NO NEED to know for me or my friends either as IHCA can talk till they're blue in the face. After all is said and done the core of the matter will be that it is just that; "talk"

I just checked the NFB (our include all organisation) calender for 2004 and there are only point regatta's for the H16 and ALL of these are part of a larger OPEN CLASS regatta, where the points are split from the OPEN class overall results. None are organised by the Hobie class organisation. The only exception is the Hobie nationals 2004; but we know how many boats show up there.

They'll be insane to try a similar stunt overhere.

Wouter

Hobie has a bigger decision to make than prohibiting open class sailing at Hobie sanctioned regattas.

That decision is:

Design new boats that are on the top end of the market, simple to rig and low on maintenance, capable and durable enough to sail in coastal waters with 20+ winds ranges and sizable chop, and price them aggressively.

The past boats were fine boats but it is time to develop new products because of new knowledge (even this is getting old) and building material.

They need a new

16 footer - present Hobie 16 needs to be replaced with a stiff full volume symetrical hulled boat, boards maybe maybe not, better rudder system, new mast, crossbars, and hardware.

18 Hobie Tiger is a good boat that does not need replacing (could be lighten up but class rules restrict such things) . This boat needs to be manufactured in the US or Mexico. With the manufacturing in europe, currency x-rates are effecting prices and the buyer (nor Hobie) cannot afford 20% price swings.

20 footer - Miracle needs to be replaced. This was an attemp at copying the P19 but the boat should be replaced and a new 20 footer developed.

Fox needs to be discontinued. Their is no choice between an I-20 and a Fox and the market has spoken.

A new Hobie 21 needs to be introduced for the big boys who want powerful boats. A market exists for a boat that can handle the 500 plus pound sailing teams that love cat sailing. These guys love all that sail area and extra wide beam with wings. Hobie just needs to lighten up the monster by 125 pounds, design a hull that does not leak, and increase hull volume. The boat would sell if it existed.

Other Hobie's I do not have first hand experience with.

I challenge Hobie or Performance to really design the next generation 20 footer with spinnaker and put a list price on it for $12,500 and I will buy it.

Actually, Performance Catamarans has brought out new models or updated old designs but they have room for improvement also.

In our Division book, the Open Class PAYS for an ad for a distance race. Goodbye to that. Another Hobie fleet gets a free ad for an open class distance race; goodbye to that ad too. Seems pointless and painful to me.

I 100% agree with you Hobie boat assessment. I think here in the midwest we have the last pocket of Hobie 20 sailors around. People really like their H20s. Interestingly enough, the H16 races have grown a little the past two years.

I have never been a fan of the Hobie 16, so when I hear someone else say "new 16 footer", my pom-poms are in the air. I am a huge fan of the Getaway and Nacra 5.2's. I could see a version of the Getaway with a taller mast being popular to race. There are some people that are just married to H16's though.

I think racing is going to the Formula classes and to long distance races. If Hobie is going to create new boats for racing, they will have to design them under those regulations. That is something Hobie seems to have a problem with right now. They have the "fun" factor down pat with the Wave, Bravo and Getaway.

Price is always an issue. Most of us like the cats because of the price vs performance aspect. We know Hobie is making a crap load on all of their products. The boats are prob. their lowest margin items. Investment on return...

I suppose they could drop the Fox, H16, H17, TheMightyHobie18, H20. Before hand they better have something ready to go. They could send letters out to all fleets announcing a 2-yr phase out of H16's for a new F16 that can be Uni-rigged or sloop rigged. Maybe a buy-back program. Then maybe for-go the F-20's for now and make a new "big-boy" boat.

There's a reason why, when I tell people I sail a catamarn, they say "Ohhh! you sail a Hobie!?". It's because darn near every catamaran event in the U.S., the signs that point to it, the shirts and hats associated with it, and the articles written about it has the flying H stamped on them. They are giving up an incredible amount of market exposure by forcing the x-boats to sort out their own organization that will be inclusive of everyone (and we will).

Flounder, I also agree that the U.S. market is ripe for a particular boat to hit the market. A survey would probably give a better indication than my opinion, but my opinion is that a new F16 complient platform made in the U.S. at a reasonable price is the sweet spot. We've seen how the Tiapan 4.9 exploded and they are hard to get as are any of the other F16s. We've also seen a strong trend toward a relatively low tech formula in the F18 and it's growing stronger than anything we've seen in quite some time. I think formula is where the future lies. It's obvious that the open classes have been growing and splintering from OD racing for some time - Formula is the next step in the evolution.

Keith,

You have great points, no need to re-state them here. Hobie is making a huge mistake here, it is a great opportunity for NAMSA to take the reigns and design a system that everybody will be happy with.

Ken,

As you were priveleged to hear Paul speak, did he give any insight as to what to do when 4 17s and 4 18s show up to an event? They do not constitute a class, thus are we to send them home? I was planning on taking my FX-1 to a NAHCA event or two to show those that haven't seen one and spurn some interest in it. If there is no X-class......am I racing against myself? I guess I won't be showing up to any Div 4 events now. Did he/they indicate how on earth they plan on BUILDING NAHCA (or HCA or whatever) or are they just ignoring that?

I gotta say, this is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen an organization do. Most businesses, when dying, do not limit their income and exposure........that equals death. I look for NAHCA to be dead in two years max....possibly one.

I think Rick has the best idea, to have NAMSA jump in and determine what the masses want. We have NAMSA events with points leading to a qualification to the NAMSA nationals or some system like that. It would take some work, but there is now a void for a lot of sailors that should be filled. I joined NAMSA last year and will be happy to re-up my membership as opposed to NAHCA, HCA or whatever.

Kip
Boise, ID
TheMightyHobie18
FX-1

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The devil
is always in the details.

For instance: In the current preliminary Div. 4 schedule,
the Vancouver Yacht Club Waves regatta is listed as a "points" event. This would indicate that it is "sanctioned". Well, Waves (a really cool event) is open
to all sorts of boats, everything from Lasers and Opti's to big boats. If the yacht club decides to have a seperate start for other cats, does this leave the Div. 4 open to legal action from INCA? And if so, would Hobie acually take
any legal action against their own Div. or members? More likely they just take the "points" note out of the listing.
But must they also remove the listing? Are they now unable to affiliate with yacht clubs that allow other types of boats, of just other types of cats? Questions not easily answered, but must be some how addressed in some sort of official policy that has yet to be written

For us X classers, it will mean that we will have to persue other avenues. Someone wrote that Laser events are
exclusivly Laser. Wrong. At the local level they are more
than happy to split costs with other fleets. Yacht clubs are
usually more than happy to take on more boats too.

Ya know folks, I haven't laughed this hard in a while!

Insurance you say?? US Sailing.

Sounds like someone went to sleep at the wheel of their Chevy to wake up and realize everyone have been driving Chryslers for 10 years!!!

IMHO,
Bob LOL

Time to move into the Inter-20.....

I think it’s a great time for the Hobie class.
I don’t know of any other sailing class that has gone through so much to help their competition. It’s surprising to me that it took the Hobie Class 10 years to find their way after taking a wrong turn.
If you read through the letters you will see that the Hobie class doesn’t wish any ill will towards X class sailors or their classes. At the same time the Hobie class has decided that they are going to focus on their own needs.
The Hobie class knows full well that they will be a smaller organization. But what’s the point of being big just for the sake of being big if you are not working towards your mission?
It wasn’t that long ago that I attended my first Hobie regatta with my “new to me” Hobie 16. One of the Mid-West hot shots was there that I had met previously at an A cat event. “You got one of those things” he said. Yes Mary it is true. I will say this guy is a good guy but he just doesn’t get it. It’s not about having the fastest boat on the water. Always wanting the newest fastest thing was what killed windsurfing and it has stunted the growth of cat sailing for years. What are the biggest sailing classes in the country? They’re boats like the Lightning and the Laser. Why are they so successful? Not because they are the next high tech thing on the market. They thrive because they have the best class organization and they run FUN events. Hobie has one of the best sailing class associations in the country and some of the most FUN events. They made a wrong turn when they decided to give the milk away for free. They have decided to take a new path. It will hurt at first there is no doubt but recovery is never a one step process.
To the X classers out there I say good luck. I wish you well, and when you have 70 boats at the North Americans and over 100 at your World Championships, I’ll be right there with you.
Bob Merrick