First, Steve in South Africa, you don't have a clue about cat sailing in America.
You just hung spins on your already successful Mosquito class and called yourself F16s.
That is not an option here.
My comments refer to the conditions, marketplace and demographics here, IN AMERICA.
I also want to reiterate that I believe that Jim Boyer has designed and built excellent boats.

"Seems like someone"
I, and many others, have been discovering and exposing wouters lies for several years now. I wouldn't trust him to tell me the correct time.
EX: On 3/21/02 wouter posted: "I'm building Taipan hulls right now" . Then on 4/16/02 he posted: "I have the plans and they are real. I'm hoping to finish my boat this summer" One month he is building hulls and the next month he gets plans.
I have saved many examples of his proving himself a liar.
"FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU, FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME"
I also know that Kirt Simmons changes boats whenever the wind shifts.
I was not at all surprised to see that he has abandoned the class that he talked so much about a short time ago.
The AMERICAN Class organization is in disarray.
Maybe the two new people will stick with it and make something happen.

"Is it that someone can buy or even home-build a 16ft boat that is "almost as fast as an F18" that upsets you?"
Earth to Steve, there are plenty of factory or home-built boats that are faster than an F18 IN AMERICA.

"Or is it that if your crew doesn`t pitch up, you CAN`T take the jib off & go sailing on an equal or similar footing to your mates?"
There are less than TWENTY f16 scattered across America.
They can't get half of them to their own National Championships.
There is no place IN AMERICA, and won't be in the near future, where an f16 can show up and have their choice of a single or double-handed class to race in.
IN AMERICA, 99% of the time a Taipan or f16 sailor will be alone, racing in the open fleet.

"Whatever your reasons, there`s no real need to keep on putting another class down"
If reality, IN AMERICA, is a putdown then too bad, change the reality.

"Everyone thinks their own boat is the greatest, that`s why they chose it in the first place."
BULL! Most of the time it is what ever boat they can find in their price range.
Whenever a person asks for advice about which boat to buy, the standard advice is to decide what type of racing they want to do and to look around their area and see what boats are being raced.
If there is any Class racing available, you don't recommend a boat that is going to always put them in the open fleet.

"Why call F16 a "overweight wanna-be A Class" ? Why even compare the two?"
DUH, because that is exactly what Class that wouter targeted.
He has said so many times.
Look at his website.
Look at the "David and Goliath Cup page.
He refers to the A Class as a "prey class".

"Must a Tornado sailor also have two boats - no, he must just live with the fact that he can`t race single-handed,"
Wrong again. He can take off his jib and/or spin and race in the open class with the one f16.

"If your friend said he was looking for a boat that had a chute, could be sailed with crew, and occasionally without, and didn`t weigh 300 lbs, would you still tell him that F16 is a bad choice."
YES I WOULD! I would tell him all the things I am trying to tell you. Racing in a standard Class is always better than open fleet.
The reason that a person would ask for advice is that theoretically you know things they don't know.
Remember, the AMERICAN f16 class has already had two people quit and sell their boats.

I know of a specific example which in the end caused the person to quit cat sailing altogether.
This guy(C) had an old friend he worked with and a new friend he was trying to impress at the yacht club he just joined.
The new friend had a Nacra 5.2 that he was trying to sell because he didn't race it anymore.
All the cat sailors at the yacht club had switched to something else.
C talked the old friend into buying the the 5.2 with a lot of flowery promises about regattas.
Of course the 5.2 being a dead boat was always racing in the open fleet against miscellaneous whatever.
New friend became very disappointed in the regatta experience.
He specifically told me how upset he was at C, that he had been talked into buying a boat that had no one to race against.
He quit racing after two years and sold the boat.

So most emphatically, I know of no place or probable set of conditions, IN AMERICA, that would cause me to reccommend an f16 to a friend.
At least not one I wanted to keep.

I don't think anyone is saying they don't like "one-design" racing. Technically that is what Formula is about. Here are the guidelines, if you boat matches them, you get to race it.

Hobie doesn't want to sponsor anything that doesn't have to do with sailing if their boats are not in the majority, thats all. From the press release, it sounds like they are willing to get nasty about it too and I think that is where people begin to get bad vibes.

My home fleet is 98% Hobies and we get our insurance through US Sailing. Will this impact me as a Nacra guy? Yes and no. Yes because technically the regional events are usually "Hobie" events so there are very few places to race now. No because we all will still hang out and have a good time.

Other fleets are more of a split. What Hobie is taking away is the "structure" from regional events that have included other boats. What it will come down to is what clubs will play ball and what clubs will just say screw it. Yesterday I was pissed because of the press release. The more I think about it, the less I care.

Am I going to sail a Hobie this summer? Prob. not. Am I going to have fun on my boat? O yes... and that is what it is all about. I am just going to continue to promote good times with great sailing and let the chips fall where they want to. I will have to quit using the term "Hobie way of life" and call it something else.

Who knows, maybe after 2 years they will get the hint.

Orangesoda,
I have heard this said over and over, as though only Hobie sailors like to race one-design. It simply is not true. Most cat sailors, per surveys I have done through my magazine, prefer one-design racing if they have enough boats at a regatta for a one-design class.

I actually thought it was a brilliant move on the part of NAHCA when they started allowing an "Open Class" at their regattas, because they were able to say, "See? Those guys have to race on Portsmouth, and we are racing one-design, which is a lot more fun."

But, actually, many of "those guys" would have raced one-design if they had been allowed to do so at the Hobie regattas.

When a class knows it can race one-design at a regatta, the leaders muster out the troops and get boats to it. No incentive to do that when one-design fleets are not allowed.

Rick and I are staunch proponents of one-design racing. I personally think Portsmouth racing is the absolute pits.

Just wanted to point out that Hobie does not have a lock on love of one-design.

Orangesoda is finally a voice of reason. I can't understand why everyone is looking at this so negatively. Let's look at it from a glass-half-full perspective:

We should all thank the Hobie company for what they have done for catamaran sailing and what they continue to do. How many companies fork over 60 boats and a staff to assemble them for a World Championships? Sure they'll sell them, but would (could) any other company take that risk?

Then there is the question of promoting the sport. No other company offers such a broad range of boats and lasting designs as Hobie Cat. How many new cat sailors do you know that could jump on an A-cat or F16, not to mention an I20, and sail it off the beach with a minimum amount of instruction? Without Hobie's introductory level of boat, how many new sailors do you think would be buying catamarans? This humble foresite is what made Hobie Alter a legend and what continues to fuel the company and the entire sport. Does Hobie make the fastest boat? No. Is thier's the most advanced design? No, but so what. Hobie is a wonderful springboard and despite the low-tech design of the H16, Getaway and Wave, they are fun to sail (just ask Rick White), and one-design racing is just more satisfying than handicap.

I enjoy seeing lots of different boats on the water at a regatta, but I don't think Hobie's very difficult decission to promote only thier product will hurt anyone. Case in point: The treasurer of NAMSA, Bob Blackington, is also the racing commodore of Hobie Fleet 61. He loves to sail multihulls and will get behind any organization that supports multihull events and I think most sailors feel that way. I'm speaking for Bob here, but having seen his enthusiasm on the water - even after we pitchpoled my H20 - I think this is a fair statement. This is an opportunity to see other classes grow under the NAMSA fleet structure. It is not about greed or about Hobie trying to shun other boat owners. On the contrary, it is a BUSINESS decission that is designed to preserve a one-design fleet and promote a product. I'll be joining NAMSA and HCA and I'll look forward to seeing a NAMSA fleet take hold in the Denver area. I'll also join friends on the J-24 circuit and maybe I'll even get a chance to race to pitifully simple (but wildly popular) Laser - against another Laser, I hope.

Thanks Steve...I couldn't have said it better myself!!!

I was one of those involved in making the "erroneous" decision to allow other brands of catamarans at HCA events in the 1990's.

I thought it was in the best interest of the class at the time. The IHCA was weak, Hobie Cat was on the ropes and the NAHCA had been freed from company control. I have to laugh because you know who was NAHCA Chairman at the time? Paul Ulibarri.

When I first read the release this morning, I was stunned. After I got over being left out of the loop (after all, I don't have any official NAHCA position anymore), I had an epiphany:

This really won't change things that much.

Florida will continue to do what they've done the past few years. You don't have Hobie only regattas now and you won't in the future.

Same for the upper Midwest. Other than CRAM, CRAW and OCRA, there's not much else going on.

New England will continue to do what they've done the past few years, too. The only thing they'll have to do is change their name. You can't call yourselves "NAHCA Division 12" and still run multiple brand boat regattas.

Those areas of the country that have Hobie only events (California is the only one that really comes to mind) will continue on their path as well.

The areas that have strong mixed events (Divisions 16, 11, 9 are the ones I'm most familiar with) will have a tougher time adjusting, but we'll live through it.

Personally, I will continue to attend those events where I find "fair competition among friends" wherever I may find them. I've been doing this for so long, I don't have anything left to prove. I don't care about Division Points anymore. I don't care if the event organizer allows other classes of boats in their event, although I much prefer to race one-design. If I have fair weather, stiff competition, good friends, and a good time, I'm a happy camper.

I have asked Paul and Rich to further define what sanctions, if any, would be imposed in the event of non-compliance. Until then, I will keep my head on straight and worry about more important things (like driving home tonight in 6" of new snow).

Matt Bounds
NAHCA Sec/Treas/Newsletter Editor 1990-1996
NAHCA Chairman 1997-2000

I think people are taking it negatively because of the accusatory tone taken by the releases.

I think people are taking it negatively because the releases hint that action will be taken against Fleets that do both Hobie one design and are associated with open Fleets.

I think people are taking it negatively because some good alliances have been formed that will have to taken apart due to the above.

Mary - you are right that most people like one-design. As for the other comments, I don't think anyone is mad because they can't do the equivalent of racing a Snipe in a Laser race - get real folks, nobody said that. They're mad because if a Fleet wants to hold a Hobie one-design regatta they can't also have their friends from other classes have a start without bringing on the boogeyman. Or go on a fun sail, or be associated...

Other classes all do this? Hell, I crewed on a Flying Scot in a regatta where International Canoes had a start on the same course. Most of the dinghy clubs around here support multiple Fleets with multiple manufacturers. Would an established mono club supporting one-design Fleets of several manufacturers be able to add Hobie-16s to the Fleets they support? Sounds like they couldn't. And if that situation already exists, change may be necessary. Clubs that host Laser Fleets also host Optimist Fleets and 420 Fleets and so on. And they often have regattas where all the classes race. None of those manufacturers are telling the clubs that they cannot support other Fleets.

But it is true that it is opportunity for all involved. Some will sink and some will swim. Maybe just by shaking things up it will provide an overall benefit.

I take it personally because of all the work, time and dedication that I have put into our fleet and Div 9, all the new friends I've made through sailing who happen to sail on boats other than Hobie, the fun that we have at our events regardless of what boat you are sailing, is considered by the IHCA, or should I say PU, to be insignificant and no longer worthy of a Hobie event.

He is asking the very people who have kept the NAHCA alive to start over. I'm not willing to do that.

Tracie

Tracie, Robyn and I agree completely. When we first started sailing we went to a few regattas to learn and see what boat we wanted to buy. We CHOOSE a Hobie 18 not because anyone pushed it on us, but because we liked it. When we get ready to upgrade, we will buy based on what we like, hobie or not.

I too have made many friends who sail Hobies, and many who sail others and if the choice has to be made, I would rather sail one-design at a regatta with mutiple fleets, regardless of manufacturer.

I can see division 9 becoming a multihull division and our regattas staying the same, possibly with the help of NAMSA. Our Hobie fleet started the Upstate Sailing Association to encourage sailing of ALL multis and I don't see that changing.

I would rather see the above take place than to ever tell Jake, David, or any of the other members of the SeaCats, that they are not welcome at our regattas.

Hobie has a right to their opinion, this is what they feel is best for them. It will fragment many fleets and change some area regattas. I feel our division will work together as it has, make changes where needed, but keep our open policy and work to strengthen SAILING as a whole.

Kindest regards,

David and Robyn Strickland
Hobie Fleet 164 (at least for now)
Upstate Sailing Association

without CRAM? Do you think you would still be in the sport if the folks of CRAM said "sorry you can't sail with us because you have a Hobie". How can that policy be good for the sport?

Dave

One observation and one question

Observation – Hobie Fleet 295 has been holding regatta’s with an open class for more than 15 years. Over the years I have observed the size of the open class shrinking and composition of the open class changing from a collection of different manufacturers to a collection of orphaned Hobie’s. In 2003 we had 11 boats in the open class of which 6 were Hobies. There were 3 20’s, 1 16 single handed, 1 Hobie 21, 1 Hobie 20 with a spinnaker and 5 non-Hobie boats. In total we had 65 boats at the regatta including the 11 referenced above.

Question – Does the edict allow for the creation of a Hobie Orphan-Class (O-Class) to give those with less popular Hobie boats a chance to race as a bigger fleet?

Mark Gibson
Tiger 1107

Hi Mark,

The way I read it, it is permissible to have a start for "orphan" Hobie Classes. Just not any other brand of catamaran.

That's if (and only if) the organizing authority is part of the Hobie Class Association (Like Division 16 or Hobie Fleet 295).

Matt Bounds

This is in response to Matt Miller

I hope this change was a considered move and not an act of desperation. I personally do not see anything good coming out of this, for anybody.

I am most annoyed because it may mess the only working cat racing organization we have on the Texas Gulf Coast. The local Fleets are operating at a skeleton level. We are still working well at a division level, coordinate Regattas, share equipment and manpower, and buy insurance. If you mess that up, I am going to be really annoyed.

It doesn't help matters that the decision was made at an AGM which was held at a time and place that doesn't coincide with the historical time and place AND that it appears that the meeting was by invitation only since it was not publicized in the NAHCA magazine or other public forum. The run of the mill X-boat sailor that doesn't follow the Catsailor forum will get a nasty shock when they either read a NOR (assuming that the hosting fleet spells it out in the limited space available). Or worse when they show up for registration and discover that A)they can't register because they didn't sail that venue the previous year or B)if they sailed the previous year, that they would be required to buy an ANNUAL membership to an organization that does not welcome them and will ban future membership.

As far as Hobie letting other boats in 10 years ago, that was a done deal at a local level before NAHCA ever noticed. The issue was manpower. There were not enough involved people to run 2 competing organizations, so we merged. That gave us a few more good years.

The Hobie organization may look good on paper but, I am sure reality doesn't match. For example, the only Hobie owning member of the Houston Hullraisers/MSA/Hobie Fleet 8 Board, is my wife and she is the most angry about this change. (However she owns a Wave which technically isn't part of NAHCA) The organizations are mostly run by only a handful people, 1 or 2 in each city, and they are getting tired.

As far what happens next - we could ignore it, work around it or tell NAHCA to ... (maybe even provide a link on how we think they should ...) The worst thing for Hobie would be for the local organizations to ignore them, that would imply they do not matter. Which from a practical perspective, they don't. I haven't seen any support beyond some small to moderate giveaways for one of our three regattas in the last 10 years.


I really hope this was a well considered move because you have made enemies. My wife loaned her Wave out for dealer demo sails, we taught people to sail and even helped to sell a few for you. We will still teach people to sail on the Wave but I have a spare Tornado logo for the sail and we will just tell people the builder of our boat is a real ... and Escape makes a similar boat.


As for my vote on what to do next, I say reorganize as Prindle Fleet 2 under NAMSA. I still have about 5000 stickers for them and they had a really cool team Texas logo for the sail

Carl Bohannon (& Cyndi Bohannon)
Tornado US 782

As the former commodore of SEACATS and Fleet 141, I feel a little more info is necessary. Are sanctioned regattas meaning a Div 9 points regatta? Because my understanding of this would mean some kind of support from Hobie, and I can safely say that besides the website promotion by Tracie and possibly a newsletter ad(I have never been a member so I dont recieve those newsletters)we have never rec'd any Hobie money. We have rec'd the freebies(coozie, key chain, beach ball) What does Sanctioned truly mean?

Second, I run our local fleet 141 website and have the Hobie logo on it at the very top of the index page. Hobie has never given any monetary support to our club or website. Do I have to remove it in fear of violation and legal woes? Sure would be a shame for them to miss out on that free ad!
Our fleet grew out of a group of cat sailors who took it upon themselves to revive Fleet 141, and those people were not all Hobie Sailors. As commodore I fought to retain our points regatta, and I dont sail a Hobie. Now the very people I have looked out for and supported are telling me to get lost, they dont need me?
I sail an Inter 20 now, and just this week was interested in the F18, more specifically the H Tiger, but now I cant really say I could feel good about buying a Hobie, and that makes me real sad. You hear that Hobie? One potential lost sale already!

Tracie, David, Dave Lennard, Jake, I look forward to sailing with you guys again real soon, hope Div 9 makes it through this as an orginization, and hopefully a Hobie organization, but the future just doesnt look good, and again that makes me real sad.

David Mosley
www.seacats.org
www.teamseacats.com

Carl B.,

Cyndi and I have HAD this discussion. Damnit, hook up with those great folks down at the dike www.texascitydike.com and go sailing.

they picked up the wayward winds, dint they?

Don't hold on to an old dream. Go with what you have. The people at the dike are dynamic, and fun, and ready for some good competition. they just drooled over Palin's boat. (Now, TCDYC, DON'T take that personal, but we ALL LOVED Palin's boat, myself MOST included.) You go bring your Nado there and just sail and love it. The guy in front is the ONE, no matter what the numbers say.

Go sailing, love the wind, everyone's out there, and brand is jack [censored]
(sorry mary, I know you don't like ca langue, but u know thass true, pas rien la langue)

tami

Dave,

Since no IHCA on HCA officers are answering these questions, I will try to give you my limited knowledge.
Yes, if you run any event where you want to use the "H****", you must then abide by their rules. This would obviously include your points regatta listed in the Division book. You can still have the race with X-class, but now must drop all referance to "H" in any way.

According to the IHCA president, "H" dropped a cool $35,000 into NAHCA last year. Along with the $30 from each and every member, well... the money is giong somewhere. It just does not necessarly get to your local fleet, but that does not mean they are not supporting you. It's just on a higher level, ie, if HCA is strong, you will be.

Letterhead... that is interesting. I guess fleets that comply are allowed to use it, but fleets that run events not in line with these rules would be subject to the legal recourse that the IHCA president threatened.

I am confused about how this plays out around the world. The IHCA president stated at the Division 4 meeting that this mandate was sent to NAHCA because we were in violation of the intent of the IHCA. All other countries already comply and were in fact shocked at what we were doing in the U.S. The two responses from outside U.S. indicate to me that this just is not so. Both Europe and South Africa stated that Hobies race as part of larger multimanufacture regattas. Which is it? When is the rest of the world going to get their letters? If not, why not?

Ken

so i had this though while working today.... why not post a required amount of Hobie participation in regattas for hobie sanctioning? IE... 80% of boats registered must be hobies....and the div must maintain this over the season.
I know that our regattas in div 4 have a good support of the hobies and in our largest regatta of 52 boats, 42 were hobies and 10 were 'other' cats, A cats, I20's and a few others. I know that these folks have appreciated the Hobie regattas, the people, the organization and the racing... they appreciate being able to race in a well organized regatta where they have no fleets to race against.... And some of these people also volunteer to help at regattas where they are not sailing, giving something back to the division. My understanding has always been that we put on the Hobie regattas for the Hobies and have invited the others to 'piggy back' on the experience. Now of course, we have always had a great turn out of hobies vs x class... I am gathering that in other divisions/fleets the balance is swaying away from the hobies... I can understand then the concern about hosting a Hobie regatta where more than half the boats are not hobies.. it then becomes a multihull regatta.. with hobie support?

dunno.. i'm rambling now i think.. so i'll leave it there... my $.02 worth... (cdn, that is.. about $.005 US)

Bob-
When I moved to North Carolina about 10 years ago there was a Hobie Fleet and a separate "X-boat" fleet, but we were both getting progressively smaller so we essentially "merged", with all the "X-boaters" joining the Hobie Fleet and NAHCA and paying their dues. Within two years of the "merger" most of the active Fleet officers were "X-boaters", NOT because we TRIED to "infiltrate" the Hobie Fleet but because the poor Hobie sailors who had been willing to be Fleet officers for the previous several years were sick and tired of doing it year after year and WELCOMED the inclusion of the "X-boaters"!! This allowed the "Hobie" Fleet to survive and even prosper during this bleak period in catamaran history. With the inclusion of the "X-boats" and people there was enough critical mass to conduct fleet meetings, regattas, and social events. Well, at least there is no doubt now who is actually "running things" at IHCA/HCA - the HOBIE CAT COMPANY with the supposed "officers" no more than company puppets- it's obviously NOT a democracy of any sort.

Kirt Simmons
H 14 (FOR SALE!) Flyer "A" cat, etc....

There should always be an H16 class, we have a Frostbite H14 class, the H17 has enough boats at regional points regattas to have a class start, and the Tiger is growing here, but for Hobie to think this exclusive ruling will help their one design classes is NUTS! The sport is waning, and exclusion will never help grow the sport. I have only been sailing Hobies/cats for 7 years, but even I know that dealer support in New England is anything but consistant. The Massachusetts dealer SUCKS! Many sailors I know have switched to Nacras and Inters. They did so for better boats, and for the service provided by Rick Bliss. Matt, I love my Hobie! But you would cringe if you could hear the conversations I've had with dealers about parts! Since it isn't a stock boat, I no longer have a chance to race it as is at IHCA events. I'm not looking to compete, I just believe the race course is the best accelerator for my learninng curve. I want to follow the vetrans arround the course. So much for that dream! I never wanted to join a fleet or club when I got my first Hobie, but when I stumbled on 448's annual Island Hop, I was taken in! The members were so welcoming and helpful! What I love about Division 12 is that it is so inclusive! We have had members with many brands of boats. They come from all sorts of different levels of our society, waiter, firefighter, truck drivers, engineers, nurses, executives...Different races etc. and by far the majority all pull together to help eachother enjoy the sport! If the rest of society could work as well towards common goals, the world would be in much better shape! To exclude people like Rick Bliss, John Smith, and so MANY others because they don't drive Hobies anymore is going to kill Regattas, or get our fleets to dump IHCA! Brian

Reply to Ken Marshack :

Just to clear things up, in South Africa cat sailing is much smaller than in USA, but probably more concentrated in certain areas. In Cape Town the Hobie 16`s are the majority (20-25 active), Mosquito`s are close behind (15-20 active), and there are a few Dart 18`s (only 1 or 2).
In Gauteng there are 40 Dart 18`s, while the Hobie class has all but died out there.
The Hobie class here organises the Hobie Points series Regattas, incorporating a Long-distance race on the Saturday. It`s open to all classes of cat, the Long distance race is scored as open class on ISAF handicap. The points series races have one start for all classes, but we are scored separately as classes. The reason we don`t have 3 separate starts is that it would take 3 times as much organising, and as I mentioned, cat sailing is not huge here.
I also believe that the Hobie sailors like the fact that we race with them, as we are pretty even on speed around a course (we are much smaller in sail area than true F16 boats.) There`s friendly rivalry, more boats on the water to race, more fun for all. We like racing with them, and it would be a pity if Hobie decide to disallow this to continue. The Hobie class here also benefit from multiclass regattas : they will be holding their Provincial Champs together as part of an Open class regatta which caters for all cats, dinghies and even sailboards. Last year we had over 250 boats at this event, of which 23 were H16`s and 5 or 6 Tigers. The H16 class was the second largest class & had their own start. Would it be a good idea for IHCA to disallow them to participate in such a well-organised event ? Would it detract from their mission to market their boat ? I think the opposite, if they held their event separately at a venue that did not have all the other sailors present, who would see them ? Who would it hurt but themselves ?
The Dart class did this last year - this year they`ve decided to join in the fun !
I sincerely hope that IHCA understand what it is they are proposing to do. The Hobie class still have their own identity, as a non-Hobie sailor I can`t attend their Nationals or Provincial Champs, those are Hobie sanctioned events and this is only logical - you can`t bring a Hobie to a Mosquito Nationals. But to enforce this ideal on all existing well attended open class events, even if they are run by the Hobie class, would be crazy.

Steve