Maughan,

I would LOVE an all carbon T. Would not buy one as I already have a T, plan to buy a late modle Marstrom soon as a second boat and after that would prefer to put the rest of my money into something else.

However, If it was going for rig price, I would snatch it up.

My advice would be that it would not be worth much more than rig and other equiptment value. ie platform not worth much.

By all means buy it and pay premium price if you are happy or use the above information to bargin down.

If you are not intending to race as a Tornado ever, this boat should be great fun. You can put carbon beams, mast, foils or hydrofoils on it, increase sail area ect.

If you were in Australia, I would be the first to put my hand up for a ride and we might even let you un-officaly race in the Tornado regattas.

I believe Marstrøm buildt an all carbon T once. I seem to remember a weight of 97 kilos, but might be way off

The carbon T has a Texel rating, and can race in texel rated events.

Ref: http://texelrating.knwv.nl/

The Tornado class rules has some provisions for 'experimental' boats. It would not get a score if allowed to start at an ITA event..

I dont see why a carbon/kevlar T should not be allowed to race in open events if it has a handicap number ?

Carl: Thanks for the clarification. I understand that I have much to learn about wood construction yet. Great fun tough.

Stephen: I have asked this on the ITA forum already, but.. I belivel Marstrøm sells an all carbon selftacker setup. Ie. track and traveller car is carbon. Is it room for this within the Tornado rules ? As my selftacker is in pretty bad shape, I would like to build a new carbon selftacker and fit on my Marstrøm.
What do you think ?

If Phill Brander reads this, it would be very interresting to get some ideas about how you made the carbon tubes for the rudder setup on your site. Specifically, how did you do the layup of epoxy/carbon in the mould and what kind of bag did you use.

Ref: http://au.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph...omponents&.dnm=Carbon+Tube+Setup.jpg

To finish this totally off topic posting off, how on earth do Marstrøm build those M-20's without seams ??

Ref: http://www.marstrom.com/administration/Boats/M20/index.asp

Rolf,
In reply to your questions:-
First the bag is made from some clear plastic and packaging tape. It doesn't have to be strong just air tight. The mould takes all the load.

Second part is a bit trickyer. The carbon is layed out flat and wet out. The width of the carbon is just greater than the dia of the tube to be made. It is layed over the bottom half on the mould (centred) The bag with a bit of 16mm dia conduit inside is layed on top pushing the carbon down into the mould. The carbon is then folded over the bag overlapping. The top of the mould is put on and hose clamps fixed in place. This is the hard part because the tube to be made is only 1 inch in dia and the carbon wants to unfold itself. So you need a second pair of hands to slide the top half of the mould along as you fold the carbon. With hose clamps in place just inflate the bag. End result is a shiny black carbon rod.

The mould is just aluminium tube sliced down its centre and lined with packing tape (because it is so shiny) and coated in PVA as a mould release.

There are 3 different ways that I know of making carbon tubes depending what you are going to use them for.

Did you have anything in mind?

Regards,
Phill

why would the platform not be worth much? The guy that built it knows what he's doing. He's been building tornados since he was in college, working on an f18 design and is currently designing/building a 36 foot trimaran. He's sailed it for two years now, and is confident that its a solid structure. He's done a lot of work engineering the thing from adding kevlar for impact resistance to making the carbon beams stout enough to eliminate the dolphin striker. He's eliminated weight aloft on the CF mast, using kevlar for the spreaders. Dimensionally, its identical to his marstrom sitting next to it, and sails the exact same. Just because it can't race in tornado class events does not mean that its not worth anything IMHO.

I think it sounds awesome, Maugan. And I don't think resale value is relevant -- even class-legal Tornados can be purchased very inexpensively after they have been used several years because the serious racers don't want an old boat. They usually are purchased by recreational sailors or open-class racers. So in that context, yours might actually be worth more than a class-legal one, especially if it is faster.

Phill: Thank you for the information.

I asked becouse I'm about to make a set of carbon rudder stocks for an old, tired, Tornado this summer.
I tought that the seam in the bag used needed to be able to withstand a lot of pressure. But I realise now that the tube takes the pressure and not the seam (if the bag is big enough). How did you get rid of any excess epoxy, as I could not see any bleeder cloth ?

As for other kind of tubes, I guess the same could be done for a spinnaker pole of 40mm diameter if the right cloth could be found. But now we are probably a bit on the side where engineering needs to be applied.

It seems like you have a lot of knowlegde (like other persons frequenting this site), and it is just fantastic to be able to tap into it now and again!

Best regards
Rolf

Thanks Mary,

You get the first ride

Maughan

Is the Tornado regeistered as an "X" boat . It should have an "X" on the stern for experimental and and ITA sail number or an ITA and a USA sail #

"X" boats are Tornado's that conform to all rules except materials. They are legal to race at a local level, they can only be raced at a national or international level with permission. The permission can range from "we would be happy to have you" to "stay out of everybody's way plus you will not be scored".

If the boat is not registered, contact the Tornado measurer. I think you just have to have the boat measured, fill out the forms and pay your fee.

There are some nasty features to the rules for light Tornado's though. To race, you must meet minimum weight, which means adding corrector weights. The corrector weight for the mast goes on top of the mast.

Good Luck

not sure about the X on the stern, I'll look for it.

It doers have a US sail # though.

There are no other tornados around here that I know of, so there are no tornado regattas. There are open regattas at the local level, I'll talk to the race chairman in the club about what will happen if I show up with the T.

I really just want to use it in distance races like the key largo steeplechase. Even if I can't compete, I'd just like to be there with everyone and have a good time sailing it.

Maughan,

Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a good boat. What I am trying to say is that as a Tornado it is not worth that much. As a one off special it might be.

A boat for sale is only worth what somebody is willing to pay. If you are willing to buy it and pay premium price, than the boat and platform are worth premium price.

You may or may not intend to race it as a Tornado (X boat). However the advice I am trying to give you is use my information as a bargining tool. Every body would love to pay the least possible price for their toy.

If you can get pictures, please post them as I and I am sure others would love to see it.

Thanks guys for your help regarding Tornado plans. I have now obtained an original set of ISAF plans form John Forbes.

Rolf,
The excess resin comes out the join in the mould.

I've made half a telescopic spinnaker pole the same way
36mm dia. (Just carbon uni and a light layer of glass to make handling the carbon easier after its wet out)
The female section will have a 40mm internal dia. There will be two built up bands on the inside section of pole to take up the slack when the pole is fully extended.

I think it will be a good thing to have if I can make it work. Apart from making it easty to transport it would be good to get rid of that extra windage upwind.

Just another thing to play with.

Regards,
Phill

Phill:

I have also been thinking about a telescoping pole. With the mid pole snuffers used these days, it should be feasible.
Reducing windage is a 'good thing' but if it is on the expense of weight some consideration must be done.

One of the problems would be to find a good solution to replace the stays used from the tip of the pole to the bows. I have sailed an old Tornado with the spi-stays run back to the bridle fittings. Works quite well when pre-bend is induced. Some force would be needed to get the pole out the last centimeters and pre-bend induced tough.

Having a pole without stays at the tip would really make lots of difficulties disappear when thinking about a telescoping solution. Increasing the diameter of the pole would perhaps make the increase in weight smaller, and perhaps also make the front stays uneccesary ?

If pre-bend is not used, the pole needs to be lowered to take full advantage of the spinnaker luff. Would stuffing the pole be a potencial problem ?

Launching the pole would need to be done before you launch the spi, an extra thing that can go wrong while racing.
Sadly, the Tornado class rules forbids such a system. You must have the tip-stays and are not allowed to adjust the pole while racing. But evoulution can not be stopped if such a system is succesful. Ref: Rule 19.b at:

http://www.tornado.org/html/rules.asp

I seem to remember reading somewhere that you also was thinking about your own carbon mast ?

Rolf,
The stays stay.
Why would you remove them?

The stays are taught when the pole is out and taught when retrieved.

Work it all out and see what you get. It may not work on a Tornado but on the Blade F16 the numbers all fall into place.

Can you tell me the length of pole, distance from main beam to bow and distance from front of the mid pole snuffer to main beam and distance between the C/L of the Tornado hulls?
I would be interested to see if I could adapt my design to the T.
If it works it will be single line operation. The pole goes out, the kite goes up. The kiye comes down the pole comes in. JUst the one line.

I made a carbon mast. The deflection tests were spot on to what I was after too.

This is a great sport there is just so much to play with.

Regards,
Phill

Phill:

The pole is not allowed to be longer than 4000mm, and we use a 4000mm long pole.

My Tornado is disassembled for the winter, but if the weather permits we will assemble it this weekend or on monday. I will get the measurements for you then, and also have a look at how long the stays are with regards to retracting.

Hi Rolf,

With regards to your question about carbon jib track. The ITA rules state

Rule 7 (Materails)

c. The materials for rudderheads and tillers, tiller connecting arm, mast tiller, spreaders, beam attachment straps, blocks, pulleys, cleats, compass holders, wind indicators, and bowsprits are optional.

d. Except for such fastenings, all marerials when dry to the measurer's satisfaction shall be of high electric resistance.

Reading this, it states that the jib track shall not be made from material that is low in electrical resistance.

I think the jib track has been overlooked by the class rules. If you are not allowed to use carbon because of its low electrical resistance, than they also should not be using the metal I tracks.

I say build a carbon one....... I don't think anybody would protest. Or you could call Marstrom to find out if its is class legal or your nearest National/International Measurer.

Maugan, for your info

Stated in Rule 7

g. Tornados built using such prohibited materials shall remain illegal: however, they shall be permitted to race in the club and local events for evaluation purposes, provided that they are registered with ITA (not the National Authority) and also provide:
i. both hulls are indelibly marked on the outside of the transoms with the letter 'X' and with a number allocated by the ITA.
ii. the mainsails have a letter 'X' of size and position in accordance with Rule 6(b). The letter 'X' shall be either in addition to or instead of national letter(s).

h. The International Class Fee as stated in Rule 2, shall be paid in respect of each experimental boat although it remains illegal. Such illegal boats will not be permitted to race in qualifying open meetings of any kind, National Championships, European Championships, World Championships or the Olympic Games unless approved by the ITA and ISAF as required by ISAF Regulation 10.3.6.


I could not see any problems with you racing this type of boat at your local club but if you were to enter a Regatta, If somebody had a problem with it, they would have grounds to protest you out.

You may want to register the boat as an 'X' boat if you got it to avoid this situation.

Hi Phil!

when do you think I can get the plans for those tiger rudders?

keep up the good work,

Tom.

Tom,
My apologies I've been really busy with the Blade.
I just haven't had the time to pull it all apart and draw it up for you.
Co-incidently while I was working in my shop today I ran across some drawings I did when I was designing the Tiger rudders.
Send me a private email and I will reply with a scan of the drawing.
That with some notes that I will put together for you should be enough for you to make the carbon rudders and carbon steering system.

Regards,
Phill

Hi Steph:

I think you are right, they have forgotten about the jib track. The rules are quite clear and to the point with what the measurer shall do if he is in doubt tough
But, it may be that they did not want more carbon on the boat, to keep cost down..

I will make the carbon track, and give it a shot. But bring the old one as a backup when travelling to events..

Phill: I can not get the measurements for you yet. It began to snow again on saturday.. I will post them as soon as the weather permits and the boat is assembled again.


Ref: http://www.istad.no/index.php?page_id=74
(Web-cam, GMT+1)

Rolf,

Carbon jib tracks are not illegal...as many currently active teams are using them. There is not a big advantage to them, just a little lighter...and a lot more expensive. Not sure why the rules don't mention it, but I suspect they just forgot about it when they were updated in 2000.

Mike.