Here is part of an e-mail I sent to Bob Curry yesterday:

Since this is a development class, limiting mast height is going to be a constant problem, because there are so many ways to hang a sail. What would you do about gaff rigs? Isn't the gaff, in effect, like a super-bendy extension of the mast? And what about lateen rigs? And what about the style of rig on the Aqua Cats, that do not have a traditional type of mast at all?

When I started thinking about it, I realized that the mere fact of limiting the height of the mast is actually limiting creativity because it implies that a mast is one straight stick.

What if somebody wants to try putting a mast on each hull, a la Ives Parlier? Or strap a couple of sailboards together? Or use an arch mast or a tripod?

The more open the rules, the more my imagination goes wild with ideas to try.

Why mention the word "mast" at all? Why stifle creativity? Maybe it should just be sail area, period, and you hang it up there with a sky hook, if you can.

I Like the sail area only idea.
One other thing-
Since when will someone coming up with a genuinely faster boat DESIGN inhibit manufacturers? I understand all the development costs etc that mnfs cant afford, but surely a breakthrough by someone else would give the mnfs a shot in the arm?
Please note, this is boat design, not weight or material.
For all the hollering, carbon fibre has not changed basic design much. Masts are the same design, but lighter as are hulls etc. Team Philips allowed new materials to affect the basic design, hitherto impossible. (bulb keels that trembled and twisted off approaching Cape Horn spring to mind too)
Just like Mylar vs Dacron, the other properties of the material can also make them less suitable for a task (lack of stretchyness in carbon makes stress points because the stressed area doesnt stretch and spread the load to the material around it)
A better design will probably result in a cheaper to build boat. Thank about a TheMightyHobie18 vs N6.0. The 6.0 is cheaper to build in numbers IMHO.

I don't really have a problem with unrestricted mast height, I just didn't want a limit on it less than 24'. Currently, there are no 14' production boats with a mast length of 24'. Some come close (13'6") like the Mystere and Quattro. I orignally posted a couple years ago about building a Quattro with Prindle 16 beams, a H14 mast, and modern mainsail, purely for use in heavy weather. The majority of the time I can solo my G-Cat 18, but when the wind is really ripping I wanted something smaller to abuse.

I've heard people talking about keeping their 22' H14 mast because they didn't want to go bigger, and that's all well and good. We're going to get some very good information this weekend from the Spring Fever Regatta, where widely different F14s will be raced against each other. Pretty much, I feel the class is just waiting to see what happens there to see what changes might need to be made.

Also, why complain about an 8'6" maximum beam when you're sure it's a design flaw to go that wide. Is your boat currently at the maximum legal road limit in Aus? Would you want to build one to that limit? Like you said, we may very well show up with an 8'6" boat and get beat by someone with a narrower beam. If that someone beating us is you, will you still complain that our boats are too wide?

Mary, I and a lot of 14' sailors here (and I bet elsewhere) had no input into any discussion concerning a formula 14 because, quite simply we were not aware that there was any discussion going on about it, and every day, due to my business, I come in contact with catamaran sailors who's first knowledge, even of this forum, is when I tell them!
But what I think is happening here is that there has been a "failure of communication". What I feel should be happening is that Bob should perserve with an F14, FOR EXISTING CATS, by the inclusion of a spinnaker etc, and call it, up front something like the suggestion that has been made here, a "grandfather F14 class". and then, from the surprisingly good interest that has been shown in a development class, a "NEW" development F14 catamaran class for the creation of a new generation of catamarans to follow along the path that has been generated along the lines of the success of F18's and, it appears, the F16 catamarans.
Darryl

There have been production 14' cats sailing in Australia since 1980 with mast heights above 24'. the Alpha Omega 4.4 has a mast hieght of 25' (excluding all fittings) Berny 's cat is over 25', the calypso 14A has a mast height of either 26 or 27 ft nacra Australia have a "14'" with the height way up there, and all of these cats perform extremely well with less inherent "stability" problems than many of the cats with mast lengths less than 24'. So the cat sailors here look at the postings talking about the "problems" of having a mast in excess of 24' with bemusement.
Darryl

I don't think any one is actually "against" the beam of a 14' cat being in excess of 2.5m, what I think is that a group who are more familiar with the geometry of stability of a 14' "platform" realise the futility of having an "overwidth" 14' cat, and feel that perhaps "stupidity" can be kept out of a class by rules and regulations, (except that rules have never yet stopped stupidity)
Darryl

Mary, I think that the confusion has come about because other 'formula' classes (F16, F18, F20 etc) are all established along parallel lines and I guess some of us assumed F14 was to be the 14ft version of that trend.

As for F14 in Australia, we've been racing various classes of 14ft cats against each other at 14ft only regattas for about ten years. Not under the banner of F14 but in the spirit of what is happening up your way now. The boats are reasonably well developed, mostly existing production cats sailed in what we call super sloop or turbo (Hobie) configuration which is sloop rigged one up with a trap. No kites as yet though. All the classes race together in a mass fleet from a common start and are mostly very competitive with each other. They are sailed to a local yardstick h/cap generally on an Olympic triangular course and the finishes are usually all very close. They also provide a trophy for o/a line honours champ.
The idea behind exclusive 14ft regattas is to get some relief from the continuous stress on 14ft skippers at open regattas coming from the bigger 16, 18, and 20ft boats who generally see 14ft production cats on the course as a nuisance which is not too cool for the 14ft skippers.
The Australians who participate in these regattas have unrestricted design criteria with only one regulation ie the boats must not be longer than 14ft nom. or 4.3m. Aside from three professionally designed boats, built to race at these regattas and generally on the open regatta circuits, no other radical amateur design has been forthcoming in the ten years these regattas have been running and the manufactures of the three new 14ftrs all took a significant financial hit for their efforts.

I know that the general discussion on the forum is leaning toward a comparatively open development class in the hope that there will be some significant interest and advances in sailboat design and construction achieved but if people had any idea of the amount of work, skill and money involved in doing this successfully they would realise it's not going to happen very often if at all. I read people talking about building hybrids from parts taken from existing boats and making all sorts of bazaar modifications to Hobie 14's etc, and I wish them all the luck in their endeavours but in reality, from a viewpoint of some technical knowledge and experience in design and construction I see it as pretty much a folly to expect any meaningful progress to be made this way. If that's all this is about though and there is enough interest, I say go for it, it'll be fun and who knows, someone might just do something spectacular.

The other consideration is that you don't need a formula to control the open, unrestricted development of 14ft sailboats except to say that they can't be over 14ft long.

regards,
Bern Leslie

What I think could be most interesting about this class, if there is no mention of mast (only maximum sail area), is that it will allow people to experiment with a wide variety of different sail plans and types and shapes of sails. And this experimentation can be done much more inexpensively on a small boat than a large one. Maybe some useful information will result that could have a trickle-up effect for the bigger multihulls.

I think a gold cup course (with reaching mark set either high or low to include a beam reach) is the best configuration for these small cats and would yield the greatest possible amount of useful data about performance on different points of sail.

Yes
Would we agree that cat sailing has given more to Monohulls, and windsurfers have given more to cats, than the other way around?

How to measure mast length. Hmmm Well maybe this anecdote will assist:

A cat sailor was arguing with a monohull sailor about the height of a mast. They used all methods they could think of to measure it but each method failed in one way or another. Getting fed up at how much time they were wasting, the catsailor said that he was just going to go make quick work of it by dropping it and laying a 100 foot tape measure across it.

The monohull sailor expressed further argument in stating that he didn't care how long it was when they were arguing about height.


GARY

Reminds me of the Irishman trying to coax a donkey under a stone bridge. The donkey refused to go any further as soon as it's ears touched the underside of the stonework. Paddy quickly decided to chisel two grooves through the stone to clear the donkey's ears. His mate Shaun came along and suggested he should just dig out the sand under the donkey's feet. Paddy replied, "don't be daft Shaun, it's his ears too long not his legs.
With apologies to our Irish friends.
Bern

It's why they lost their navy, They all drowned push starting their submarines! And, they had a real problem when "air" brakes were first fitted to trucks with drivers testing them by driving their trucks over cliffs!