How are we planning to measure mast length? From the loose way the rules are written I would guess from the bottom of the base to the top of the mast.

It's getting important, I will be cutting a mast in the next few weeks.

My sail maker said I needed a stiff mast, the stiffer the better he said. I just found a broken Marstrom A-class mast. The diamond wire will go to within 3 ft of the top of the mast. When I told my sail maker about it, he said I was thinking broomstick, not steel I-beam.

We also figured out that an old soft rig Tornado main can be cut as a test sail.

I will be glad when this is finished. I would like to sail instead scrapping glue off my hands



Carl

Good question, Carl, because we have the same problem. Yesterday Rick's son Dave dumped a very tall mast in our yard and said Rick is going to cut it down for his Wave to race Formula 14. Supposedly, this was a Hobie 14 mast, but I just measured it, and it is about 35 feet long and tapered. Nobody knows what kind of boat this mast was on originally. It looks OLD, but maybe we will be giving it a new purpose and saving it from the aluminum recycling bin.

So, I guess the question is- do we measure the total length of the mast, or the length of the extrusion?

I am thinking of using a TheMightyHobie18 mast. Does anyone know how long the comp-tip is? The H-18 mast should be 28' long, so if the comp-tip is 4' or less I can cut at the top. If it's 4' or longer I'll have to cut at the bottom, or find another mast.

Personally I think the rules at this stage are still way open to negotiation given that very few people had an opportunity to have a say in the development of them in the extraordinarily limited amount of time given for discussion, and I for one think mast height needs to be discussed further so if you're thinking of cutting a mast, I think I'd wait a while. I really don't think we should be rushing this for one regatta and I'm sure the organisers would accommodate a boat with a slightly taller mast anyway if that's what you really want to do at this stage. Personally I'd be building the rig I thought was the most efficient for a 14ftr rather than working to an arbitrary number which may or mat not be best for the class. I also have the suspicion that the mast height was deregulated in subsequent posts on the subject but I like you all, am not sure exactly what's going on.
We should probably just be having some fun with it for now to see how things develop.
Bern

I'm all for the length of the extrusion. What do y'all think??

Bob

Bob,

Yep - I second that - length of extrusion.

In order to keep from alienating anyone from the class in one year, this kind of decision should be made now.

While getting money at the ATM down the road, I spotted a H14 rotting in someone's back yard...I'll be leaving them a note next week!

Well I'm going to be competing on a new 4.3 metre cat within the next 3 months. It's all carbon fibre ie hulls, mast, beams, boom, rudders, C/boards, rudder stocks, and the mast will be 25' long (without the fittings). I will be sailing it as a formula 14, one up on trapeze cat rigged with spinnaker or two up on trapeze cat rigged with spinnaker. I personally would not like to see a restriction on the mast length (no matter how you measure it) any less than 26'or even 27'. Forget about the dimensions of ALL the existing "14' cats" when setting up a completely NEW formula 14. None of the new generation cats that will form this formula have as yet seen the water, so lets not try to restrict them to all the perimeters of "last centuries" designs, Be satisfied with formulating a working formula for all the existing 14' cats to be able to sail together for an "across the line first wins" competition, but don't stiffle what has the potentual for being the best thing to happen to 14' cat sailing since the introduction of fibreglass, by making restrictions based on past manufactureres or association "class" boats.
Darryl J Barrett

Which extrusion is that Bob? The one I use is 8m+.
Frankly I don't see much point in limiting the mast height on a 14ft boat. It can really only be so high before it becomes a hindrance and if the beam isn't regulated, why should we regulate the mast height?
Having said that, I've spent a lot of time and money designing and building a very nice 14ft racing catamaran, the pictures of which I'm sure you've all seen, and I'd hate to see it relegated to the scrap heap in F14 because it has a mast height of 25'-10" or 7.57m so if you want to make the limit 26ft or 7.9m that'd be Ok with me.
I also think that max towing width in Australia would be a good and sensible max width for a 14ft cat. Having to build a tilt trailer to participate in F14 would make for an expansive, difficult and inequitable situation.
The maximum towing width in Australia is 2.5m (8ft 2.5inches)
Bern Leslie

When you really think about it, probably the best way to set the dimensions for a "NEW" formula 14 cat would be to simply set the length at 4.3 metres. It has to have two hulls of equal volume, and racing starts at 2.30pm. All the rest will sort itself out in a very very short period of time, and the main criteria has been set and resolved, that being IT IS A FORMULA 14.

Darryl, in the F18's the width limit is the american max. towing which is wider than the Australian maximum. This means that if you want an F18 in Australia you need to have a tilt trailer or suffer in higher wind strengths. Aparently Nacra Aus. refuses to sell wider beams unless you can prove you have a tilt trailer. Easier just to regulate the F14 max. width to Oz std.
A minimum weight should also be set to keep the costs to at least a sensible level unless you want your new boat to be obsolete in a year or two when the new ultra light weight moulding compounds requiring a megga $$$ process, becomes available. I think 70kg (155lb) is probably equitable at this stage with an option to look at it again in a year or two.
Bern
Bern

Nobody has mentioned trimarans -- I have been told the class is going to include them, as well as catamarans.

Let them do what they want Berny, The practcality of it all would very soon become apparent when some one who builds a boat at some extreme width, or even if they went to only 8'6", apart from the total pain in the butt every time they had to tow it any where, when they found that it would be because of their width that they couldn't compete with a 14' cat that's beam was on the 7' side of 8', I think that the lessons would soon be learned

Not sure MARY, but if you were to allow trimarans or tri foilers or triple hulled planners or hydrofoiled craft, it all starts to get a little out of control. I don't think any one would object to allowing "normal" monohulls compete with F14 cats, because they would automatically think that it was a pointless exercise for the mono hull sailor, (and it would be) but when it got down to allowing a radically different "type" of craft that would have entirely different sailing characteristics (and probably a far superiour performance) the line would very quickly be drawn. Besides the interest here is for a formula 14' CATAMARAN (ie two hulls of equal volume). If you want a formula for "every thing" then create one, but I think that this one is, rightly or wrongly for "catamarans".

Sorry Darryl, but as you yourself suggest there needs to be some rules even if they are simple because the class needs the stability of equality or people won't support it including manufacturers. The attractive thing about one design is that there is equality but the major problem with one design is there are too many different classes, each with but a few participants. The attractive thing about the formula class is, it has the potential to bring many of the one design classes together in one fleet but it also needs to adopt the attribute of the equality that one design offers and that can only happen if there are some parameters to begin with otherwise;



Bern

Your completely right Berny, and I agree with you 100%, but I still enjoy occasionally "throwing the cat amongst the pigeons" to see what will come out of the melee
Darryl

Trimarans? I heard that from the founder and director of the Formula 14 class. And I do not see how they are incompatible with catamarans. They raced against each other in the Formula 40 Class.

Foilers? As far as sailboats, I see those as a completely separate, new classification that encompasses sailboards, monohulls, catamarans, and trimarans.

Foilers are at least as different from multihulls as multihulls are from monohulls. In essence, foilers bring all of the sailing boat types/hull types together because they all start being more equal once you get ABOVE the water. It is a whole new dimension with its own experimentation going on. They do not really belong in any specific "water-locked" sailing class, formula or not. In fact, I think that trying to fit into an existing class would inhibit the development of the foiler technology.

Add: In fact, foilers are kind of like sailboards in being a separate classification.

Mary there are trimarans that although they have foils on the lower ends of their vertical supporting foils, they are not hydrofoils! they achieve their bouancy with very high aspect ratio vertical foils (like three long daggerboards )which collectively have enough bouancy to fully support the "hull" (in this instance refered to more as "fuselarge") well clear of the water and the, neutral lift, horizontal foils under water are used the same as aerolons and elevators on an aeroplane. Although it may sound a little strange when one hasn't seen the plans for one (or one actually sailing)I can assure you that this form of sailing is getting up there with the sort of drag coefficients that we see in an ice yacht (almost but obviously not quite) and although by any ones definition, when you have seen one you would have to say, if asked what "type" of sailing craft was
it? you would answer Trimaran (and not hydrofoil because a foiler relies on forward motion to generate lift where as this achieves its lift with its bouancy the same as any catamaran, trimaran or mono hull). If one of these at 14' in length was put up against any catamaran of any size there would be absolutely no competition the "trimaran" would more than double the cats speed on all points of sail and more on some. Would that be fair competition? I think that instead of fostering more diversity and more sailor involvement, it would just stop any and all desire to try to compete against some thing that you knew was "light years" ahead of what you had and it was always going to be that way. Oh by the way just who is it that you say is the founder and director of the Formula 14 class? I have heard this "idea" of a formula style class for 14's 16's "A" class (18's) B2 class (18'sloop), B class (20'), C class being talked about, discussed at length resulting in association constitutions, regulations, and class rules being written and in some instances incorporated, ever since the late 1950's I have a copy of the constitution, the class rules, and the regulations that were written in 1979 specifically for a 14' cat formula where any and all makes of 14' cats could race for first over the line as long as they fell within the "box Rule" It is an idea that, as far as I am aware "belongs to no one person" It has floated around and at times in the past has come closer to fruition then than this one has (as yet). I have always been an advocate of this form of rating specifically sized craft, so that it gets rid of the "one class" idea which has always been slightly diversive for sailing and instead bring in this idea which portents more towards amalgamation of the "Class's"

This weekend looks like a great opportunity to discuss with the US sailors at the Spring Fever. I can report back early next week with everyone's thoughts. I'll be leaving early Thursday morning and will be off line until Monday.

Thanks for all the great discussion!

Bob

Darryl, aren't you saying the same thing I said -- that foilers should be in a separate classification or separate class? I still don't see what that has to do with whether a boat has two hulls or three hulls in a Formula 14 class. In fact, why wouldn't it allow monohulls, too? The class name and the rules don't mention "multihull."

The rules also don't prohibit foils, but I imagine that will be addressed. Or maybe that would be one of the "sub-classes" alluded to in the rules.

It's kind of funny how this whole thing has mushroomed. It all started with Bob Curry coming up with the idea of forming an informal Formula 14 class so the Hobie Waves and Mystere 4.3's and Hobie 14's could race together. Well, that didn't last long! Within a day or two it had turned into a development class. At this point it is still just an idea. We'll see what happens this weekend at Spring Fever when the Formula 14 class makes its debut.

If Australia already has had a Formula 14 class for a long time, why don't you send the constitution and rules to Bob Curry? The people who gave input to forming a Formula 14 class here were certainly not thinking on an international scale and I don't think anybody was aware that such a class already existed in some other part of the world.

Why a limit on mast length?

The idea was to keep the boats fun to sail. With no limit on mast length we will go the route of the A's, to the limits of stability and human ability.

I settled on a 22-23 ft mast for my boat as the best compromise considering it was designed for a hooter downwind. If I remember the computer results, I could put a 29-30 ft mast on it. To sail it I would have to anticipate every gust. But, if I were willing to accept a boat almost as tippy as a Laser and a catastrophic pitchpole about 10% of the time, really cleanup on the race course. It would also not be very much fun the sail, beat the crap out of me, make me even more afraid of high wind, and make it too unstable to comfortably drink a beer on the way to the dock after the Wed Night Races

As far a current designs, I think everything out now, would be made obsolete by a purpose built boat. We are allowing big sails on a short waterline. To make it go I am planning on using the headsail to torque the bows out of the water downwind. I am not sure but I suspect that the f14 will end up looking a lot more like an Aussie Skiff or an International 14 than an F18.

I think spin pole length maybe a bigger issue. I have been playing with the idea of flying the hooter like a staysail and sheeting off the front crossbeam. This would take about a 12ft pole but would keep the bows out of the water on a hot reach. Food for thought

Here is part of an e-mail I sent to Bob Curry yesterday:

Since this is a development class, limiting mast height is going to be a constant problem, because there are so many ways to hang a sail. What would you do about gaff rigs? Isn't the gaff, in effect, like a super-bendy extension of the mast? And what about lateen rigs? And what about the style of rig on the Aqua Cats, that do not have a traditional type of mast at all?

When I started thinking about it, I realized that the mere fact of limiting the height of the mast is actually limiting creativity because it implies that a mast is one straight stick.

What if somebody wants to try putting a mast on each hull, a la Ives Parlier? Or strap a couple of sailboards together? Or use an arch mast or a tripod?

The more open the rules, the more my imagination goes wild with ideas to try.

Why mention the word "mast" at all? Why stifle creativity? Maybe it should just be sail area, period, and you hang it up there with a sky hook, if you can.

I Like the sail area only idea.
One other thing-
Since when will someone coming up with a genuinely faster boat DESIGN inhibit manufacturers? I understand all the development costs etc that mnfs cant afford, but surely a breakthrough by someone else would give the mnfs a shot in the arm?
Please note, this is boat design, not weight or material.
For all the hollering, carbon fibre has not changed basic design much. Masts are the same design, but lighter as are hulls etc. Team Philips allowed new materials to affect the basic design, hitherto impossible. (bulb keels that trembled and twisted off approaching Cape Horn spring to mind too)
Just like Mylar vs Dacron, the other properties of the material can also make them less suitable for a task (lack of stretchyness in carbon makes stress points because the stressed area doesnt stretch and spread the load to the material around it)
A better design will probably result in a cheaper to build boat. Thank about a TheMightyHobie18 vs N6.0. The 6.0 is cheaper to build in numbers IMHO.

I don't really have a problem with unrestricted mast height, I just didn't want a limit on it less than 24'. Currently, there are no 14' production boats with a mast length of 24'. Some come close (13'6") like the Mystere and Quattro. I orignally posted a couple years ago about building a Quattro with Prindle 16 beams, a H14 mast, and modern mainsail, purely for use in heavy weather. The majority of the time I can solo my G-Cat 18, but when the wind is really ripping I wanted something smaller to abuse.

I've heard people talking about keeping their 22' H14 mast because they didn't want to go bigger, and that's all well and good. We're going to get some very good information this weekend from the Spring Fever Regatta, where widely different F14s will be raced against each other. Pretty much, I feel the class is just waiting to see what happens there to see what changes might need to be made.

Also, why complain about an 8'6" maximum beam when you're sure it's a design flaw to go that wide. Is your boat currently at the maximum legal road limit in Aus? Would you want to build one to that limit? Like you said, we may very well show up with an 8'6" boat and get beat by someone with a narrower beam. If that someone beating us is you, will you still complain that our boats are too wide?

Mary, I and a lot of 14' sailors here (and I bet elsewhere) had no input into any discussion concerning a formula 14 because, quite simply we were not aware that there was any discussion going on about it, and every day, due to my business, I come in contact with catamaran sailors who's first knowledge, even of this forum, is when I tell them!
But what I think is happening here is that there has been a "failure of communication". What I feel should be happening is that Bob should perserve with an F14, FOR EXISTING CATS, by the inclusion of a spinnaker etc, and call it, up front something like the suggestion that has been made here, a "grandfather F14 class". and then, from the surprisingly good interest that has been shown in a development class, a "NEW" development F14 catamaran class for the creation of a new generation of catamarans to follow along the path that has been generated along the lines of the success of F18's and, it appears, the F16 catamarans.
Darryl

There have been production 14' cats sailing in Australia since 1980 with mast heights above 24'. the Alpha Omega 4.4 has a mast hieght of 25' (excluding all fittings) Berny 's cat is over 25', the calypso 14A has a mast height of either 26 or 27 ft nacra Australia have a "14'" with the height way up there, and all of these cats perform extremely well with less inherent "stability" problems than many of the cats with mast lengths less than 24'. So the cat sailors here look at the postings talking about the "problems" of having a mast in excess of 24' with bemusement.
Darryl

I don't think any one is actually "against" the beam of a 14' cat being in excess of 2.5m, what I think is that a group who are more familiar with the geometry of stability of a 14' "platform" realise the futility of having an "overwidth" 14' cat, and feel that perhaps "stupidity" can be kept out of a class by rules and regulations, (except that rules have never yet stopped stupidity)
Darryl

Mary, I think that the confusion has come about because other 'formula' classes (F16, F18, F20 etc) are all established along parallel lines and I guess some of us assumed F14 was to be the 14ft version of that trend.

As for F14 in Australia, we've been racing various classes of 14ft cats against each other at 14ft only regattas for about ten years. Not under the banner of F14 but in the spirit of what is happening up your way now. The boats are reasonably well developed, mostly existing production cats sailed in what we call super sloop or turbo (Hobie) configuration which is sloop rigged one up with a trap. No kites as yet though. All the classes race together in a mass fleet from a common start and are mostly very competitive with each other. They are sailed to a local yardstick h/cap generally on an Olympic triangular course and the finishes are usually all very close. They also provide a trophy for o/a line honours champ.
The idea behind exclusive 14ft regattas is to get some relief from the continuous stress on 14ft skippers at open regattas coming from the bigger 16, 18, and 20ft boats who generally see 14ft production cats on the course as a nuisance which is not too cool for the 14ft skippers.
The Australians who participate in these regattas have unrestricted design criteria with only one regulation ie the boats must not be longer than 14ft nom. or 4.3m. Aside from three professionally designed boats, built to race at these regattas and generally on the open regatta circuits, no other radical amateur design has been forthcoming in the ten years these regattas have been running and the manufactures of the three new 14ftrs all took a significant financial hit for their efforts.

I know that the general discussion on the forum is leaning toward a comparatively open development class in the hope that there will be some significant interest and advances in sailboat design and construction achieved but if people had any idea of the amount of work, skill and money involved in doing this successfully they would realise it's not going to happen very often if at all. I read people talking about building hybrids from parts taken from existing boats and making all sorts of bazaar modifications to Hobie 14's etc, and I wish them all the luck in their endeavours but in reality, from a viewpoint of some technical knowledge and experience in design and construction I see it as pretty much a folly to expect any meaningful progress to be made this way. If that's all this is about though and there is enough interest, I say go for it, it'll be fun and who knows, someone might just do something spectacular.

The other consideration is that you don't need a formula to control the open, unrestricted development of 14ft sailboats except to say that they can't be over 14ft long.

regards,
Bern Leslie

What I think could be most interesting about this class, if there is no mention of mast (only maximum sail area), is that it will allow people to experiment with a wide variety of different sail plans and types and shapes of sails. And this experimentation can be done much more inexpensively on a small boat than a large one. Maybe some useful information will result that could have a trickle-up effect for the bigger multihulls.

I think a gold cup course (with reaching mark set either high or low to include a beam reach) is the best configuration for these small cats and would yield the greatest possible amount of useful data about performance on different points of sail.

Yes
Would we agree that cat sailing has given more to Monohulls, and windsurfers have given more to cats, than the other way around?

How to measure mast length. Hmmm Well maybe this anecdote will assist:

A cat sailor was arguing with a monohull sailor about the height of a mast. They used all methods they could think of to measure it but each method failed in one way or another. Getting fed up at how much time they were wasting, the catsailor said that he was just going to go make quick work of it by dropping it and laying a 100 foot tape measure across it.

The monohull sailor expressed further argument in stating that he didn't care how long it was when they were arguing about height.


GARY

Reminds me of the Irishman trying to coax a donkey under a stone bridge. The donkey refused to go any further as soon as it's ears touched the underside of the stonework. Paddy quickly decided to chisel two grooves through the stone to clear the donkey's ears. His mate Shaun came along and suggested he should just dig out the sand under the donkey's feet. Paddy replied, "don't be daft Shaun, it's his ears too long not his legs.
With apologies to our Irish friends.
Bern

It's why they lost their navy, They all drowned push starting their submarines! And, they had a real problem when "air" brakes were first fitted to trucks with drivers testing them by driving their trucks over cliffs!