How are we planning to measure mast length? From the loose way the rules are written I would guess from the bottom of the base to the top of the mast.

It's getting important, I will be cutting a mast in the next few weeks.

My sail maker said I needed a stiff mast, the stiffer the better he said. I just found a broken Marstrom A-class mast. The diamond wire will go to within 3 ft of the top of the mast. When I told my sail maker about it, he said I was thinking broomstick, not steel I-beam.

We also figured out that an old soft rig Tornado main can be cut as a test sail.

I will be glad when this is finished. I would like to sail instead scrapping glue off my hands



Carl

Good question, Carl, because we have the same problem. Yesterday Rick's son Dave dumped a very tall mast in our yard and said Rick is going to cut it down for his Wave to race Formula 14. Supposedly, this was a Hobie 14 mast, but I just measured it, and it is about 35 feet long and tapered. Nobody knows what kind of boat this mast was on originally. It looks OLD, but maybe we will be giving it a new purpose and saving it from the aluminum recycling bin.

So, I guess the question is- do we measure the total length of the mast, or the length of the extrusion?

I am thinking of using a TheMightyHobie18 mast. Does anyone know how long the comp-tip is? The H-18 mast should be 28' long, so if the comp-tip is 4' or less I can cut at the top. If it's 4' or longer I'll have to cut at the bottom, or find another mast.

Personally I think the rules at this stage are still way open to negotiation given that very few people had an opportunity to have a say in the development of them in the extraordinarily limited amount of time given for discussion, and I for one think mast height needs to be discussed further so if you're thinking of cutting a mast, I think I'd wait a while. I really don't think we should be rushing this for one regatta and I'm sure the organisers would accommodate a boat with a slightly taller mast anyway if that's what you really want to do at this stage. Personally I'd be building the rig I thought was the most efficient for a 14ftr rather than working to an arbitrary number which may or mat not be best for the class. I also have the suspicion that the mast height was deregulated in subsequent posts on the subject but I like you all, am not sure exactly what's going on.
We should probably just be having some fun with it for now to see how things develop.
Bern

I'm all for the length of the extrusion. What do y'all think??

Bob

Bob,

Yep - I second that - length of extrusion.

In order to keep from alienating anyone from the class in one year, this kind of decision should be made now.

While getting money at the ATM down the road, I spotted a H14 rotting in someone's back yard...I'll be leaving them a note next week!

Well I'm going to be competing on a new 4.3 metre cat within the next 3 months. It's all carbon fibre ie hulls, mast, beams, boom, rudders, C/boards, rudder stocks, and the mast will be 25' long (without the fittings). I will be sailing it as a formula 14, one up on trapeze cat rigged with spinnaker or two up on trapeze cat rigged with spinnaker. I personally would not like to see a restriction on the mast length (no matter how you measure it) any less than 26'or even 27'. Forget about the dimensions of ALL the existing "14' cats" when setting up a completely NEW formula 14. None of the new generation cats that will form this formula have as yet seen the water, so lets not try to restrict them to all the perimeters of "last centuries" designs, Be satisfied with formulating a working formula for all the existing 14' cats to be able to sail together for an "across the line first wins" competition, but don't stiffle what has the potentual for being the best thing to happen to 14' cat sailing since the introduction of fibreglass, by making restrictions based on past manufactureres or association "class" boats.
Darryl J Barrett

Which extrusion is that Bob? The one I use is 8m+.
Frankly I don't see much point in limiting the mast height on a 14ft boat. It can really only be so high before it becomes a hindrance and if the beam isn't regulated, why should we regulate the mast height?
Having said that, I've spent a lot of time and money designing and building a very nice 14ft racing catamaran, the pictures of which I'm sure you've all seen, and I'd hate to see it relegated to the scrap heap in F14 because it has a mast height of 25'-10" or 7.57m so if you want to make the limit 26ft or 7.9m that'd be Ok with me.
I also think that max towing width in Australia would be a good and sensible max width for a 14ft cat. Having to build a tilt trailer to participate in F14 would make for an expansive, difficult and inequitable situation.
The maximum towing width in Australia is 2.5m (8ft 2.5inches)
Bern Leslie

When you really think about it, probably the best way to set the dimensions for a "NEW" formula 14 cat would be to simply set the length at 4.3 metres. It has to have two hulls of equal volume, and racing starts at 2.30pm. All the rest will sort itself out in a very very short period of time, and the main criteria has been set and resolved, that being IT IS A FORMULA 14.

Darryl, in the F18's the width limit is the american max. towing which is wider than the Australian maximum. This means that if you want an F18 in Australia you need to have a tilt trailer or suffer in higher wind strengths. Aparently Nacra Aus. refuses to sell wider beams unless you can prove you have a tilt trailer. Easier just to regulate the F14 max. width to Oz std.
A minimum weight should also be set to keep the costs to at least a sensible level unless you want your new boat to be obsolete in a year or two when the new ultra light weight moulding compounds requiring a megga $$$ process, becomes available. I think 70kg (155lb) is probably equitable at this stage with an option to look at it again in a year or two.
Bern
Bern

Nobody has mentioned trimarans -- I have been told the class is going to include them, as well as catamarans.

Let them do what they want Berny, The practcality of it all would very soon become apparent when some one who builds a boat at some extreme width, or even if they went to only 8'6", apart from the total pain in the butt every time they had to tow it any where, when they found that it would be because of their width that they couldn't compete with a 14' cat that's beam was on the 7' side of 8', I think that the lessons would soon be learned

Not sure MARY, but if you were to allow trimarans or tri foilers or triple hulled planners or hydrofoiled craft, it all starts to get a little out of control. I don't think any one would object to allowing "normal" monohulls compete with F14 cats, because they would automatically think that it was a pointless exercise for the mono hull sailor, (and it would be) but when it got down to allowing a radically different "type" of craft that would have entirely different sailing characteristics (and probably a far superiour performance) the line would very quickly be drawn. Besides the interest here is for a formula 14' CATAMARAN (ie two hulls of equal volume). If you want a formula for "every thing" then create one, but I think that this one is, rightly or wrongly for "catamarans".

Sorry Darryl, but as you yourself suggest there needs to be some rules even if they are simple because the class needs the stability of equality or people won't support it including manufacturers. The attractive thing about one design is that there is equality but the major problem with one design is there are too many different classes, each with but a few participants. The attractive thing about the formula class is, it has the potential to bring many of the one design classes together in one fleet but it also needs to adopt the attribute of the equality that one design offers and that can only happen if there are some parameters to begin with otherwise;



Bern

Your completely right Berny, and I agree with you 100%, but I still enjoy occasionally "throwing the cat amongst the pigeons" to see what will come out of the melee
Darryl

Trimarans? I heard that from the founder and director of the Formula 14 class. And I do not see how they are incompatible with catamarans. They raced against each other in the Formula 40 Class.

Foilers? As far as sailboats, I see those as a completely separate, new classification that encompasses sailboards, monohulls, catamarans, and trimarans.

Foilers are at least as different from multihulls as multihulls are from monohulls. In essence, foilers bring all of the sailing boat types/hull types together because they all start being more equal once you get ABOVE the water. It is a whole new dimension with its own experimentation going on. They do not really belong in any specific "water-locked" sailing class, formula or not. In fact, I think that trying to fit into an existing class would inhibit the development of the foiler technology.

Add: In fact, foilers are kind of like sailboards in being a separate classification.

Mary there are trimarans that although they have foils on the lower ends of their vertical supporting foils, they are not hydrofoils! they achieve their bouancy with very high aspect ratio vertical foils (like three long daggerboards )which collectively have enough bouancy to fully support the "hull" (in this instance refered to more as "fuselarge") well clear of the water and the, neutral lift, horizontal foils under water are used the same as aerolons and elevators on an aeroplane. Although it may sound a little strange when one hasn't seen the plans for one (or one actually sailing)I can assure you that this form of sailing is getting up there with the sort of drag coefficients that we see in an ice yacht (almost but obviously not quite) and although by any ones definition, when you have seen one you would have to say, if asked what "type" of sailing craft was
it? you would answer Trimaran (and not hydrofoil because a foiler relies on forward motion to generate lift where as this achieves its lift with its bouancy the same as any catamaran, trimaran or mono hull). If one of these at 14' in length was put up against any catamaran of any size there would be absolutely no competition the "trimaran" would more than double the cats speed on all points of sail and more on some. Would that be fair competition? I think that instead of fostering more diversity and more sailor involvement, it would just stop any and all desire to try to compete against some thing that you knew was "light years" ahead of what you had and it was always going to be that way. Oh by the way just who is it that you say is the founder and director of the Formula 14 class? I have heard this "idea" of a formula style class for 14's 16's "A" class (18's) B2 class (18'sloop), B class (20'), C class being talked about, discussed at length resulting in association constitutions, regulations, and class rules being written and in some instances incorporated, ever since the late 1950's I have a copy of the constitution, the class rules, and the regulations that were written in 1979 specifically for a 14' cat formula where any and all makes of 14' cats could race for first over the line as long as they fell within the "box Rule" It is an idea that, as far as I am aware "belongs to no one person" It has floated around and at times in the past has come closer to fruition then than this one has (as yet). I have always been an advocate of this form of rating specifically sized craft, so that it gets rid of the "one class" idea which has always been slightly diversive for sailing and instead bring in this idea which portents more towards amalgamation of the "Class's"

This weekend looks like a great opportunity to discuss with the US sailors at the Spring Fever. I can report back early next week with everyone's thoughts. I'll be leaving early Thursday morning and will be off line until Monday.

Thanks for all the great discussion!

Bob

Darryl, aren't you saying the same thing I said -- that foilers should be in a separate classification or separate class? I still don't see what that has to do with whether a boat has two hulls or three hulls in a Formula 14 class. In fact, why wouldn't it allow monohulls, too? The class name and the rules don't mention "multihull."

The rules also don't prohibit foils, but I imagine that will be addressed. Or maybe that would be one of the "sub-classes" alluded to in the rules.

It's kind of funny how this whole thing has mushroomed. It all started with Bob Curry coming up with the idea of forming an informal Formula 14 class so the Hobie Waves and Mystere 4.3's and Hobie 14's could race together. Well, that didn't last long! Within a day or two it had turned into a development class. At this point it is still just an idea. We'll see what happens this weekend at Spring Fever when the Formula 14 class makes its debut.

If Australia already has had a Formula 14 class for a long time, why don't you send the constitution and rules to Bob Curry? The people who gave input to forming a Formula 14 class here were certainly not thinking on an international scale and I don't think anybody was aware that such a class already existed in some other part of the world.

Why a limit on mast length?

The idea was to keep the boats fun to sail. With no limit on mast length we will go the route of the A's, to the limits of stability and human ability.

I settled on a 22-23 ft mast for my boat as the best compromise considering it was designed for a hooter downwind. If I remember the computer results, I could put a 29-30 ft mast on it. To sail it I would have to anticipate every gust. But, if I were willing to accept a boat almost as tippy as a Laser and a catastrophic pitchpole about 10% of the time, really cleanup on the race course. It would also not be very much fun the sail, beat the crap out of me, make me even more afraid of high wind, and make it too unstable to comfortably drink a beer on the way to the dock after the Wed Night Races

As far a current designs, I think everything out now, would be made obsolete by a purpose built boat. We are allowing big sails on a short waterline. To make it go I am planning on using the headsail to torque the bows out of the water downwind. I am not sure but I suspect that the f14 will end up looking a lot more like an Aussie Skiff or an International 14 than an F18.

I think spin pole length maybe a bigger issue. I have been playing with the idea of flying the hooter like a staysail and sheeting off the front crossbeam. This would take about a 12ft pole but would keep the bows out of the water on a hot reach. Food for thought