Is that ALL !?! Ahh just leave it then
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<br>US I-20 will have an small advantage over iF20 in light airs
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<br>US I-20 will have a small disadvantage over iF20 in heavy airs
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<br>just make sure that the ratio between light and heavy air is equal and you'll cancel out any differences over a season.
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<br>This minor difference should not be significant. only 5 % on the mainsail in rated sailarea (carl !) when sailing with 3 sails up this is decreased to something of 2,5 % and when the square root is taken (power to speed conversion) you are left with 1,5 % speed advantage. Or about 1 minute in one hourin I-20 favouring conditions. I say ACCEPTABLE as a grandfather margin. Any speed margin around 1 % are to be expected between the different designs and I expect the P19 and H20 to have the same margin on their side in heavy air.
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<br>Just dispensate all I-20 's before 1 januari 2002 and require all new I-20's to be of iF20 compliance and you're set. Problem solved. Those sails will eventually blow out and everybody will be full compliant then.
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<br>Wouter<br><br>

That's all. I plan on measuring my mainsail soon to get an accurate measurement. The US main may be only slightly bigger. The US main has a flap on the bottom that can be taken off. Wouter, are they're any used I20 mainsails for sale in our club. I have a Kooji (sp?) jib and would be interested in getting a used main for fun.
<br>My average wind speed for all races sail this past season was 8.7 kts.<br><br>

That flap doesn't really do anything. It only benefit is that it smooths out turbulence around the bottom part of the mast. I do not consider that flap area to be of any use with respect to produced sailpower.
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<br>In light air the wind has a very strong gradient along the mast and hardly blows near the mastfoot. So any area there is usely, you want it up high in the mast.
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<br>In heavy air you'll fly a hull and a large part of the flap is in the turbulence of the raised hull and in these conditions the amount of sailarea is of secondary importance. The shape and depower controlls are far more important.
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<br>These are the reasons why I say, forget about that larger main and dispensate all boats before 1 jan 2002 and use the iF20 setup for the US.
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<br>Barry, you have an e-mail from me in your box about 2nd hand mains.
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<br>Wouter<br><br>

Thanks guys, all good points.
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<br>The basic idea of a formula class is to provide one design style racing. All boats will be theoretically equal. It is very possible that a new better smaller boat will some day be beating whatever formula is decided upon. If this is truelly a concern, set up a developmental class of 20 footers with parameters open enough for sailors to choose boats for their weight, local wind conditions etc.
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<br>Im personally a huge supporter of 1 design, and hence favor the tru intent of a formula class. I agree with Wouter that the current slant (my interpretation of the forum posts) of the class being constructed around the I20 US will not attract the attention that we would like to see.
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<br>I am very interested in how this keeps shaping out.
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<br>
<br>Matt<br><br>

Matt
<br>What boat do you currently sail?<br><br>

I think it is time to bring all of us back to earth. We seem to be content on arguing about Rules and details, which boat will work with which sail, heavy boat light crew… but no one can see the next hurdle in front of us. This Association will Fail without an existing infrastructure i.e. We Need ICA (Inter Class Assoc.)& NACHA Let me rephrase that We stand a much better chance of success working with these Organizations then with out them. Try to picture yourself organizing Regattas and setting a National schedule maybe even a National Championship, finding Measures, Committee & Pro’s, publishing Rulebooks…starting from scratch, it just won’t happen as much as I would like to see it work I think we are fooling our selves. We seem so bent on Reinventing The Wheel we can’t see what is right in front of us iF20 iF18 (I20-Fox/I18-Tiger) of Europe (concentrate on these four boats for now). Lets See? Rules… Done! Class Organizations to Host Events…Done!, Printed Rulebooks… Done! Manufactures building boats to Formula Rules... Done! . Both Performance & Hobie have Direct contact with the right People in Europe.
<br> If both ICA & NACHA adopted the Formula classes (allowing Both Boats to race at each others Events) we could be racing tomorrow. Lets see what’s left Oh ya! That silly Sail Area problem that keeps popping up If you Don’t want to race Formula then keep your 5% more Sail Area and Race One Design.
<br>Now, I see all the same hurdles you do but you think this seems hard Just Try and get everyone to Agree on one set of Rules.
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<br>P.S. If you insist on rewriting the Book then I agree with Matt M Leave the Rulebook wide open (“A” class). I don’t think the Best Thing for the Cat Sailing is to bastardize the One Design classes we do have to fit some Unknown Formula!
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<br>
<br>Mike B
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Mike B
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<br>Good point! Are you volunteering to talk to both of these assocations??? I do not agree with the rest of what you say in whole but, I think if we had dialogue it would get somewhere with these assocations.
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<br>Steve<br><br>

Steve
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<br>Yes! I will contact both Organizations But What do you want me to say? So far we can’t even agree on a Set of Rules. I think we should form a Committee (Not a Class Association) to discuss how we see this is going to work (I20 vs. Fox & Tiger vs. I18) and how this is going to Benefit Both Associations And a long signature list to convince them we mean business
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<br>Unlike Europe we don’t have 20 manufactures to work with we have 2. I am convinced a Formula class where boats from Different Manufactures can Race Head to Head is what the US needs, but we need to keep our One Design Classes in tact.
<br> Lets see if we can accomplish this first then see what happens! This is only the first Step!
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<br>Mike B
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<br><br><br>

Barry,
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<br>I predominately race a H16. It has been where the best competition is around here, and in a huge blow is still my favorite boat. I have owned and raced the H20 on and off and as they are finally starting to become more prevalent at races here I will probably switch back to it permanatly. This spring I will also have a 3D -20 that I will use for distance racing, local portsmouth and long weekend sailing.
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<br>Whatever attracts the biggest starts is the boat I will be racing.
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<br>How about you,
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<br>Matt
<br><br><br>

Mike B.
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<br>Excellent post. I agree with you 100% on all points. I especially like your rules are done idea. Except for the snuffer we could use the iF20 rules and F18 rules as they stand. What ever rules we come up with we would have to get a list of sailors that would sign on as committed to the rules. Once we have that we would see the manufactures adjust their appoach to give us boats and sails that we are looking for. Then we go to the current associations and gain their support also.
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<br>This seems like a way to get this moving forward.
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<br>Mike Hill
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Hi Mike B
<br>-With so many of us with so much enthusiasm believe we will succeed , as you mention ,it is very difficult to get people to agree , think mainly because we have not yet clearly understood the problems .
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<br>Your offer to contact Hobie and Performance is I,m sure greatly appreciated by all .
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<br>-Also believe we should refrain from using very negative overly dramatic terms like "bastardizing " in rules discussions , there is no faster way to turn potential class members away from this class ,-we have a very different set of existing circumstances in N A ,--Our intent is not to bastardize anything , but to promote a more inclusive better higher performance developemental form of equal racing in the U S ,---SO " back to earth "-
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<br>- 1-We have Nacra with 200 existing Inter 20 s with a 14.5 sq ft larger mainsail . We took basic measurements 2 years ago when we first considered F-20-The headboard and top batten are much larger than existing F-20s along with coresponding roach {trailing edge of the mainsail }.Nacra's goal as with all mfg is to sell boats , the boat dealers are active and do a tremendous amount to help support racing .
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<br>-Hobie has the Fox with comptip . there is no large active Fox class to date.
<br> Both companies goal is to promote and sell their product .
<br>-Mainly because of the Hobie family "{ wonderfull people} " and the early success of the H-16 , The H-Class has maintained the vast majority of the catamaran market .
<br>-Hobie needs to improve the Fox , but there is currently no motivation for them to do so , as we continue to hear directives of Hobie first oriented regattas .The class Assoc. over the years has brought thousands of people into sailing and racing ,and has been great for the sport .
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<br>-The extent of support the new N A Formula Classes will recieve from Nacra ,-Hobie or any boat mfg. will be in direct proportion to the number of boats sold , The real support for the class will be in boat dealers who race themselves and may sell several brands of catamarans , also from the many various sailing clubs around the country , including Formula starts in their regattas , distance races and general organization, and mostly from enthusiastic avid racers like ourselves willing to organize and promote the class ideals and bring new people , new events, and life into the sport.
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<br>-There currently is no way to keep both H fOX and I -20 as they are , One has a carbon fiber mast and larger sail area.One has a comptip.
<br>-We have numerous existing active racing 20 ft catamarans in the U S in ranging weights and sail areas that we can not ignore either .
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<br>-Please propose a comprehensive SOLUTION , because of the existing described set of conditions we have in N A -existing formula rules developed in Europe in 93 will be largely ignored in the 20 ft class ,--
<br>-The 18 Class will have some success due to the Tiger , Nacra F-18 and several other cats developed specifically to the F-rule , Many racing sailors wanting those specifically drafted structured rules will be attracted to that class , It is the perfect size for husband -wife type teams ,and the majority of sailors , now along with a new HT F-16 Class, allowing one up or 2 up racing.
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<br>-Maybe the 20 Class in the U S should take the lead and become more of a combination of Formula and developement class encouraging and allowing faster ,safer , designs to evolve .
<br> It really depends on what type of sailing you personally enjoy . If your perception of the 20 class is a strict type of one design allowing different mfg. that,s great , but believe this leads back to a one design fleet with one mfg.boat dominating the scene with little variation between boats .
<br>-What many others may envision is more of a developemental 20 class allowing more individual innovation geared to racing enthusiasts ,similar in rules structure to the A Class , but allowing more developement through a range or boat weights and sail plan configurations , and also including all the existing various active racing 20s .
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<br> Carl <br><br>

Matt
<br>I currently race an Inter 20 in the summer and a Hobie 14 (frostbite fleet of 20 boats) in the winter. I started racing cats as crew on a Hobie 21. This was the first real spinnaker boat in the US. I leaned the fine art of sailing a cat with a spinnaker in buoy racing. A year later I purchased my own Hobie 21. We had a class of around 10 boats the racing was great. The class was starting to dwindle and Hobie decided they didn’t want to support the class anymore. I got out while my boat was still worth something. At that time the Hobie 20 class was the biggest, but shrinking, 20’ boat. The Nacra 6.0 fleet was gaining momentum. I felt the competition was going to end up in the 6.0 fleet so I purchased a new 6.0. I hated racing without a spinnaker, I had a spinnaker for distance racing and fun sailing. It still left me wanting to sail around the buoys with a spinnaker. When the I20 came out I was a little hesitant to jump ship on the 6.0. We had a big class and very good sailors. I sailed the I20 once and I had to have this boat. The balance and feel of the boat was so sweet. I bought an I20 in August of 1999. Raced in the 1999 at the Performance North American a month later. I came in second to Matt Struble after only two regattas on the boat. I also hadn’t raced against any other 20s until the NA’s. The local class has 4-6 boats at all of our races. Four of the boats can win any races at anytime. The others are catching up fast as we have been coaching them on spinnaker handling. We race one-design class most of the time and start with the 6.0’s. I have sailed the Hobie Fox and I am sailing the Tiger at the Alter Cup in June. I am interested in sailing F18 also. I sail the I20 at close minimum, we would be under weight right now, and could get to f18 weight easily.
<br>I have been a fleet commodore and also a NACHA Division Chair. I don’t have an allegiance to any boat or manufacture but I believe there is a boat out there that can fill everyone’s needs. I have been personally attack on the other Forum, but I was from people that don’t know me. I have spent a ton of time giving back and helping all sailors. Mike Hill could back me up on this. This weekend I will be helping a youth sailor get his rudder system fixed on his 14.
<br>I think I am done.
<br>Matt thanks for the reply. It’s always good to know a persons background to better understand where their view come from.
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Hi Carl
<br> Thank you for taking the time to write me such a nice response letter, sorry about that “Bastardizing” thing I promise not to use the “B” word again I guess my enthusiasm ran away with me.
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<br>In any type of racing where more then one Mfg. is involved you run the risk of one Mfg. becoming King (with Any Set of Rules You Chose) the Excitement comes in dethroning the King.
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<br>Mike B
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Thanks Mike ,-
<br> I am over reacting a little ,-sorry --do you know what the inside scoop is in Hobie class politics now , --all the references to the king ,and holding Hobie oriented regattas only , and dictating how local fleets conduct their regattas .
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<br>-Raced H-18s for a decade ,then H-21s, but I,m out of the loop so to speak .The Fox seems to be not well accepted , the Tiger may be their only active current marketing push .--Can you suggest any way for this new 20 class to work with them .
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<br>-Believe it would be best if they rethought the Fox and built a lighterweight higher performance version , --but doubt that this would happen , --it would save that class ,
<br> The Fox is an excellent basic design ,but at that weight and alum mast competing even up with c f masts , --well .
<br> The marketplace and direct competition will demand greater effort from ALL mfg, and builders for better lighter higher quality cats.<br><br>

Hi Carl
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<br>Yes I am sure Nigel is out Rich is in , but our Fleet is always going to have an Open Class Regardless of Who’s in Charge and I am reasonably sure most fleets feel the same way.
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<br>I hope with a little work we can make the Formula Class work for everybody Yes Everybody, but first lets take this in smaller steps, the start of a Production class (I20, Fox, I18, Tiger, Nacra F18)and really there are only small differences between the Fox & I20 Using if20 Rules (for the most part) there is a weight limit for the mast and the boat (Hobie cat of Europe ships all boats at minimum 190 kg. they add weights to the front cross bar, Performance Ships to Europe at min. 190 kg ) you can use carbon you just have to add weight. Hobie has claimed (Hobie Cat of Europe) that their mast (all Alum. From Europe) is just as light but more durable then Carbon. So we are right back to that Silly Sail Area Thing and I would love to see it come down to just one Thing. If we can get a Production Formula Class to work Your HP Class will Be a Snap.
<br>The hole thing goes Crazy when we try to be all Inclusive, but the funny thing is all the boats you want to Include can work within the Production Formula.
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<br>One step at a Time!
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<br>Mike B
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The mast weights are not the same. I own an I20 and raced (and setup) a Fox last year. There is a big difference.
<br>FYI The mast I used had a comptip.
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Update: Both the Fox & the Tiger can be Purchaced with an all Alu. Mast from Hobie Cat of Europe.
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<br>Mike B
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Carbon mast versus alu mast (no biggy)
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<br>Carbon mast IS allowed under IF20 and Hobie decided that alu was better for their design. Personally I don't expect any performance difference between Carbon I-20 and Alu Fox mast. Both are prismatis sections. Real benefits come from non prismatic carbon masts. Picthing is not really a problem on a 20 foot boat no matter what kind of mast. And Can any of you quantify the benefits of the carbon mast ? I think not.If you do some Research you will find that A-cat name the following two points as benefit to carbon.
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<br>- Better trimming
<br>- Less weight up high
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<br>For the first to become effect you first need to learn to trim properly or even really well. How many of you do That ?
<br>The second is of minor importance on 20 foot designs. Is alu much lighter ? Example T4.9 alu blank is 13,5 kg, T4.9 carbon blank = 9,5 kg's, not that mush is it ?
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<br>Drawback of carbon.
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<br>- Less flexible than alu, more difficult to depower
<br>- Smaller sailshape control span
<br>- expensive
<br>- Needs more care.
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<br>I say PC and Hobie made different choice based on the pro and cons given and I wouldn't go as far as to say the PC carbon is a better choice. This despite the fact that carbon is a better choice in A-cats, but there te carbo mast are non prismatic and non constant in layup. I very much doubt wether PC carbon masts are.
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<br>Hobie and Nacra battle it out here, What more reasurrence do you want for equality between these two designs.
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<br>Please correct me when I'm wrong
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<br>Wouter<br><br>

Thanks Mark B --Barry ,--Majsteve ,--Wout --
<br> -Realizing you are right , I may be reaching too far with an idealistic weight to sail area formula that the vast majority of sailors will not comprehend .
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<br>-The next best alternative is to have the Fox and Hobie Europe agree to build it to the same specifications as the existing Inter ,-same mast weight , same boat weight =390,-same sail area {added 14.5 sq ft main , as well as all other boat mfg. for the N A market .
<br>-Majsteve has been preliminarily working on this in contacting some at Hobie to discuss the Formula classes , along with potential major sponsors for future events .
<br> Having participated in Prosail and the Ultimate Yacht Race events in 88 on H-21S , this is very exciting stuff , but the top levels will take a new direction in the future.
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<br>-iF we can set those basics -mast weight ,-boat weight ,-sail area , then we can proceed through the rest of the rules , allowing snuffers , pole length , min.weight , crew compensation factors , etc ect ,
<br> Then the difficult task of which existing cat designs to allow dispensation , or special consideration to , allowing them to race basically as they are for a limited period of time with the same chute sizes -270 -within the 20 formula class,--
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<br>-As Mike suggested we can add a progressive boat weight reduction annually allowing lighter boats gradually over a period of time .
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<br>-Lets form a strategy and assist Hobie in promoting a higher performance lighter larger sail area version of the Fox ,
<br> As I said ,if the 2 major cat mfg. in NA had built their new 20s the same , we may have formed a Formula Class 2 years ago .
<br> A more developemental formula class would interest me more but , no one is going to have everything they want ,-
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<br>-hhmmm -developement formula 22 , -{-just joking }
<br> All the best
<br> Carl
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<br>-<br><br>