Sail6000 thank you, you picked up right where my thought processes are. The more you include in the beginning the more voices have an opportunity to direct the future.
<br>
<br>We need more "bring what you got -- all are welcome" and less "well your not legal here and not right there and your boat does not have the right logo". I have never said I want to stop one design racing. More directly I want to give people options in what they want to do. Picture a regatta that you can attend and if its blowing like stink you can race one design (where you feel your more competitive) or if its not you can race "Formula" (where you feel your more competitive). Will it give race organizers a headache? No, because there will be more boats on the water. If we impliment the combined weight rule. I truly believe we can bring in some good talent from the monohull side of the sport. THere are alot of larger sailor who just can't compete against smaller teams and therefore see no reason to come and try. If I (at 200lbs) can bring in a monohuller (at 180 lbs) and we can compete against another boat straight up. Then more than likely we've hooked another convert. When I move up or on to another boat. More than likely I'll sell the boat to my buddy(crew) and extend the love of our sport. Also, the old boat will have some value over a few grand (due to the war between hobie and PC). Breathing new life in to an older design while expanding our numbers thats what it is all about.
<br>
<br>When new lighter boats come out (in a few years) I'll be looking for heavier crew to stay "formula" But also, so will the lighter teams. Which will force those teams to find some "meat" in order to stay formula. Think of it as a recruiting arms race. You have to bring in someone rather than open your wallet to be competive (at the highest levels). Will it choke out the husband - wife teams? No. THey still have options heavier boat, one design, racing in lighter conditions or really a reason to add a few lbs at hoiday time (just kidding). Really, it opens the sport up much more than it closes it. Also, it will bring alot of new ideas as people experiment with new ideas.
<br>
<br>Should racks be legal? I'm really tossed up on that one. Basically, if you make it legal for one you have to make it legal for all. The ideas of formula maximums are to allow what is best for each team. If you let someone cheat around and give them an advantage then someone crys foul. Remember that the majority of the winds are light in the US. So it is very few minutes that righting moment becomes an issue. And in those minutes its the ability to control the sail not hang the weight that makes a difference between first and last.
<br>
<br>Thanks.
<br>
<br>When should we all vote on this issue??
<br>
<br><br><br>

-Sounds good Steve -
<br> We need a more defined proposed set of rules before voting .
<br>-We need a concensis among those committed , maybe starting the e-mail group .
<br>
<br> In adding open developement sail area and weight rules to Formula we may loose several that are committed to the i F -
<br>-Some may go to the F-18 , but think a certain number will regardless.-that's o k ,hope to race it in N A sometime soon also . We have to work with 16 and-18 Formula classes , support them as well ,the 20s in N A will just be more developemental if their is suffecient support to begin.
<br> -
<br>
<br>-MORE DEFINITION -rules
<br> We are still talking about two different rules approaches for the class -
<br> -#1 -A total boat and crew weight ,-
<br>
<br>-#2 Sail area to boat weight ratio rule -
<br>
<br> -the existing F rules allow a larger chute size for larger weight teams ,-{evan more horsepower } -we may set this at 6 % or an extra 20 +- sq ft added to 330 -to a total 350 sq ft of spin for teams above 350 lbs .
<br>
<br>-A min class weight may be set at 330 , and allow up to 60 lbs to be carried to meet min .-A 150 and 120 lb crew could compete , but have a weight carrying disadvantage .
<br> We are already excluding many lightweight teams with this rule at the other end of the scale , we have to be very carefull about only creating a class for {heavyweight big guys } -though the 20 length will automatically attrack this feature with the extra length and volume .
<br>
<br>-The promotional and organizational commitment you have made is fantastic , these will actually be the main factors in getting this class going , -but lets build on a solid foundation of FAIR SAILING ,--of including all existing boats , allowing developement , KEEPING IT SIMPLE , INCLUSIVE, EXCITING , and FUN.
<br>
<br> ALL THE BEST -
<br> Carl Roberts -
<br>
<br> good pic in the caption of Dave and I leading the pack the first day of the Worrell 1000 last year , much to our surprize , you can right click and zoom in a few times , Team Sail for Sight - , we are going again next may ,-we weight 400 lbs --also my 6th , -so the name sail 6000--hopefully the goal anyway !!!<br><br>

I will reply in short comments, for I'm pressed for time, sorry.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>You seemed to miss the concept of total boat and crew equal combined weight being proposed by some ,-
<br>The total crew and boat weight equalizes light wind conditions ,
<br>
<br>Only when sailarea and mast height are equal in this situation too. Now as far as I can tell US I-20 is both the lightest boat and the one with the most (effective) sailarea. So yes, your combined weight proposal is good in principle but maybe impractible when it comes down to modifying Hobie 20. This boat will have to be sailed by a pretty light crew than. But your right that racks can go some way in correcting this in the stronger winds. However I doubt it very much wether current H20 crews are that light and these crews are than simply "Out of Luck" partly due to the inflexibilty of the dominant US I-20 group. Well, I'm not a participant in this group so I will leave it at this.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>which is around 8 mph winds when powered up on these larger more powerfull cats . -not 15
<br>
<br>
<br>Ohhh, Okay.
<br>
<br>
<br>variable wind strength would not be the factor involved in the equation ,-only equal ft lbs of righting achieved closely though not perfectly on each boat .-crew height would also becpme a factor with weight , also the distance of the heavier boats hull being more inboard would require a % factor in the total equation as well.
<br>--If any could design lightweight inexpensive racks we could all bolt on I would be all for this type of rule , we could then all add even more sail area in proportion to the added righting and sail capasity.
<br>
<br>
<br>(wouter) You're going to end up with pretty wide boats ! =)
<br>
<br>
<br>-wout - How do you propose to attract H20, N6.0, Mystere 6.0, Prindle 19 sailors to this class which is effectively as US I-20 class. What are you going to tell them to convince them that it is in their interest and entlargement of sailing joy to participate in such a class on a NON US I-20 boat.
<br>
<br>I wish to underline, that when you can't formula a really catchy answer that this point will proof to be the stumbling block over which this F20 group may fall.
<br>
<br>-not a catchy answer but an honest logical one ---
<br>-Proposing an Inter 20 based class will not work , it will alienate all others including all other existing active 20 N A cats listed .-F-20 WILL alienate Inters and many others .
<br>
<br>
<br>(Wouter) yes, that was the core of my comment too.
<br>
<br>>>-constructive specific responce is appreciated .
<br>
<br>(wouter) Indeed, well go for it and I hope you achieve your goals. I really do. There is nothing more I would like to say as a reply to these points you raise.
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>

Ok, let me go out on a limb abit here. Here are the numbers for the most common boats here in the US as we talk today all data is directly from the company's websites so don't shoot me if its wrong call them up and chew on them.
<br>
<br>Boat
<br>I20 390 lbs, 193sq ft main, 53 sq ft Jib, 270sq ft spin. total sq ft 516
<br>
<br>N6.0 na (worrell rig) 420 lbs, main&jib 264, 340sq ft spin, total sq ft. 604
<br>
<br>Hobie 20 400 lbs, main & jib 250sq ft. Total sq 250
<br>
<br>Hobie Fox 419 lbs, main 194 sq ft, jib 52 sq ft, spinnaker 269 sq ft, total sq ft. 515
<br>
<br>P19MX 385 lbs, main and jib 247, total sail area 247.
<br>
<br>
<br>As you can see the N60 na worrell rig has the most sailarea. Now basic logic would say that this boat has to be the fastest boat. Is some cases it is in most it is not. Here is the real meat in the formula issue.
<br>
<br>What I propose is in a basic manner. We say weigh everything for combined weight. Lets figure that 350 is a fair crew weight (I got there from alot of post saying we weigh 390-420 plus and dividing it by the list of 325 and under crews. Plug middle is 366.4 but for the sake of arguement and the fact that the light weight guys are really afraid of this I'll call it 350) Take that with the average of the boat weights at 402.8 (we all know they lie about it so lets call it 410) so you get a combined weight of 760 lbs.
<br>
<br>Ok combined weight 760 lbs all up (weigh everything including safety gear, vests, and harnesses) No camelbacks, or other "variable" ballast to be weighed but if your thirsty carry it!
<br>
<br>Now for the weird part --- total sail area. HMMMM! Lets call it 550sq ft. (measure everything main, jib, spin/genn) for this number. Before all you guys start to go nuts about measurements. Here is how we tackle this. Everything stock is assumed to be "factory class legal" and will get a NAF 20 sticker affixed to it with the class legal sail size written on the sticker. Now for every new sail we have the sailmaker affix a NAF 20 sticker on it with the sailarea written on it by the sailmaker, the owner of the sail must provide an invoice if protested that the sail is as stickered. At protest the committee can measure the sail and if it is not the sailor is fined and the sticker removed from the sail. Remember we are suppose to be "honorable" about what we sail (every class rules assumes this honor)
<br>
<br>SO if you walk by the boat it will have a NAF 20 sticker saying that it weighs XXX (from the manufacturer). You have the crew weigh in full gear ( the regatta officials write that weight in) and you have basic math.
<br>
<br>Hobie 20 used as example boat
<br>weight of boat 410
<br>Crew weight 350
<br>
<br>Total weight 760lbs
<br>
<br>Sails
<br>
<br>Aftermarket Main and stock Jib Totaling 265 sqft (15 sq ft over stock)
<br>
<br>Spinnaker 285 sq ft.
<br>
<br>Total sail area 550 sq ft.
<br>
<br>Easy format, enough sail area for power against the I 20 and a basically even format. New mast? Nope total cost of upgrade? About 1500 - 2000 dollars (includes main, spinnaker, spin pole sheets, blocks, and misc hardware-- remember a stock 20 is not a spin boat). This is if you wanted to go full tilt boogie. Personally, I'd take a hit in the spin area and put on a 210-230 sq ft gennaker and pray for moderate air. Remember in light air we'd all be equal, Moderate air we'd be experiencing our own mods, and I'd be praying for the ability to sail the gen up and down the course.
<br>
<br>You notice that in this formula the I 20 can get away from snuffer and sail a bigger chute. Would make it stronger in distance races. Even the NA 6.0 gets the benefits of a different main and a smaller chute. God knows it would be easier to handle for medium and smaller crews.
<br>
<br>I feel that this is very equal and only people who feel that more is better are forced to go that way. How many days have you sailed with the spinnaker still in the bag? I know I have alot. So with that out of the equation the boats would be more equal all the way around the course. Not just a bigger spin for heavier crews (which I think is moronic). But, gives you more all the way around.
<br>
<br>Thanks for the forum.
<br>
<br>Steve<br><br>

Hi Steve -
<br>
<br> We will be working with sail makers ,--boat designers ,--and boat mfg. Companies --people with technical backgrounds that will want exact written definitions of all rules ,--it is a difficult task ,---
<br>
<br>-Open to all proposed rules ideas ,--but as I,ve been told many times by others in rules discussions ,{-the devil is in the details }-
<br>will try to walk through the total boat and crew weight proposal -
<br>
<br> Total weight -760 -combined boat and crew
<br> Total sail = 550 sq ft ----any configuration -
<br>
<br>-Is there a max amount of weight a crew can carry ?
<br> sail area ,--is there a max or min mainsail ? -
<br>A max or min boat weight ?
<br>
<br>-Could a team build a boat with 550 sq ft main and jib ?
<br>-A 400 sq ft main ?
<br>
<br>-Would all boats under this rule soon adopt huge mainsails with reef points and large furling hooters only ? ------
<br>
<br>-If a mfg builds a beautifull lightweight 330 lb boat ,-
<br> it would require a 430 lb crew , -
<br> Would any manufacture this cat for only 400 plus lb crews ?
<br>
<br>-If a team wanted a 350 lb boat but weighed 300 would they be allowed to carry 110 lbs of dead weight ?
<br>-
<br>-Again it is a difficult task , not trying to be negative , or discourage efforts by any , but we will have to answer all these questions and many others with any rules proposal, it can be a frustrating process, but one that we have to place our personal interests aside to some extent and endeavor to insure fair sailing for all .
<br>
<br>-In looking at the existing state of 20 racing in N A over the last few years , and seeing developement and desire for new developement in cats , per A Class and other excellent lightweight durable designs ,believe the best option is for us to adopt the basic Formula concept establishing length and beam , with similar componate definitions , and then allowing the sail area to weight ratio scale which adds the developemental aspect . It is fair across the board , but may favor heavier teams slightly.-min 325 or 330-
<br>
<br>-Crew weight becomes a much smaller proportional issue
<br>.
<br> Crews can deside for themselves what ideal weight they would like to be racing cats with up to 360 sq ft sail plans already overpowered flying hulls in av 6 mph winds.
<br>
<br>--Carl <br><br>

Carl
<br>
<br>You bring up some good points and I agree the devil is in the details.
<br>
<br>Lets go through this as a Q and A. My answers will be anoted with a @
<br>
<br>Total weight -760 -combined boat and crew
<br>Total sail = 550 sq ft ----any configuration -
<br>@remember that this is under the assumption that we limit mast height to 31' 6" and that the mainsail can not extend past the 31' 6" height restriction.
<br>
<br>-Is there a max amount of weight a crew can carry ?
<br>@ I believe that the boat should carry no more than 45 lbs of corrector weight and that the crew will not be able to carry any additional weight other than the aformentioned gear. (could you carry a camelback at weigh in? Yes --- if you would write a rule that it was an immediate dsq if the crew emptied the camelbak other than into themselves.
<br>
<br>
<br>sail area ,--is there a max or min mainsail ? -
<br>@ no max or min mainsail all sails are totaled.
<br>
<br>A max or min boat weight ?
<br>@ no but boat and crew must weigh a total of 760lbs or be correctable as described.
<br>
<br>-Could a team build a boat with 550 sq ft main and jib ?
<br>@ yes, but they would have a problem of getting it to fit and then controling it.
<br>
<br>-A 400 sq ft main ?
<br>@yes, but fit and control become an issue. There are alot of these issues that play out due to practicality. Most of these extreme changes just will not work. So basically, these extremes bare no cause for concern.
<br>
<br>-Would all boats under this rule soon adopt huge mainsails with reef points and large furling hooters only ? ------
<br>@no, due to costs and practicality
<br>
<br>-If a mfg builds a beautifull lightweight 330 lb boat ,-
<br>it would require a 430 lb crew , -
<br>@ yes, or a crew that could correct to it.
<br>
<br>Would any manufacture this cat for only 400 plus lb crews ?
<br>@doubtful, most manufacturers are in the business of building alot of boats cheap. So these ultra light weight boats that people discuss will be very rare and would only be suitable for certain conditions and race venues. Most people will just adjust what they have and come to race. Techno geeks will play but by and large the formula is basically sound.
<br>
<br>-If a team wanted a 350 lb boat but weighed 300 would they be allowed to carry 110 lbs of dead weight ?
<br>@No, there has to be some level ground. What I would suggest is these two 150 lbs guys find another good sailor to sail with and expand the competiton out a bit. Think of it in this way. You have the team of Randy Smyth and Jason Sneed (two very skilled sailors sailing together at minimum) If they split and each find a 200 lbs guy you have two boats that can be very closely matched on all aspects creating two things more race teams and better competiton. There are alot of other classes where light weight crews can race and no other classes where heavier guys can race (competitively) We need to all recognize this and try to correct this. DO you need to have a combined weight of 300-325 lbs to race a cat? No, but unfortunatly alot of people think so.
<br>
<br>I think that a variable sail area format as compared to weight is not an equal format and for people that don't have a constant crew makes them invest in multiple out fitting of their boat. When it is much easier to find a crew and add abit of corrector instead if you have to.
<br>
<br>Thanks
<br>Steve
<br><br><br>

I just had a thought here.
<br>
<br>Could we write a "mark down rule"? I think so. Basically, a format where say your 35-45 lbs under after the corrector weight is added. If you lost sail area after this was taken into account say from 550sq ft to say 500sq ft. then you could aslo correct that way also to allow for truely lightweight teams to race with the same basic penaly that a heavy crew would automatically have in a one design formula.
<br>
<br>Just a thougt not really a suggestion.
<br>
<br>Steve<br><br>

It preserves flexibility, allows existing boats to be sailed as their owners see fit (more or less), and provides for growth and evolution of the class.
<br>
<br>Alan Thompson
<br>I20 - San Diego<br><br>

-Maybe your on the right track here Steve ,--combining the two rules with total weight AND progressive sail areas to that weight . --Maybe we can have the best of both rules.
<br> Will try to find and propose a scale , we do need to include more than the existing proposal would allow --
<br>
<br> -some reasons listed -
<br> -potential problems with existing total weight rule as proposed--
<br>
<br>-Total boat and crew =-760
<br> boat av 410 +350 lb crew
<br> crew could carry up to 45 lbs -
<br> All crews min 305.and up or they are excluded from sailing .
<br>-Any below 350 would be required to carry dead weight .
<br>
<br>-example -I-20 CREW =min weight 370 or they carry dead weight ,---add 45 dead lbs to min 325 --all crews below 325 are automatically excluded from I-20 racing .
<br>
<br> Teams wanting to race lighter boats would gradually in increasing percentage would be unable to meet weight requirements
<br>
<br> as boat weight is reduced ,-required crew weight is increased -320 boat would require a min.440 lb crew -or 400 lb crew with 40 + lbs of dead weight .--
<br>
<br> the rule would exclude a large percentage of existing sailors ---How many of us are over 200 ,--should we have a 20 class only for big 200 plus guys.
<br>
<br>-everything is open with sailplan -
<br> limits are capasity of a 33 ft mast -
<br>
<br>-most would choose huge main and large furling jib --
<br>
<br>-The performance of this rig in light air would walk away from everything existing , ---existing boats not converted would not be competitive in av 8 mph winds Barry stated as the season average.
<br>
<br>-All boats would adopt huge mains , or be left behind , check with any who have done this with existing boats and raced open , they are conciderabley faster in light air , ----the main problem we are trying to avoid with this rule , --light air advantage by some , -
<br>
<br>-What we are pondering here is an open rule , the only class limit is Length mast and total weight , --most will not weigh enough or be forced to carry 45 pounds or less of dead weight , -
<br>--There is no market or motivation to develope lighter better performance designs .
<br>--Lets work on this ,-and propose a rule that includes all existing sailors , as many 20s as possible ,
<br> Will work on a combination scale -
<br>
<br> Carl
<br><br><br>

Carl
<br>
<br>The one thing your missing here is mass. As in mass of sailors. The more sailors in the more that can compete in future variations on future boat designs.
<br>
<br>Basically, we are creating a "grandfather" class that gets all existing boats competing against each other.
<br>
<br>Now to do this you make a level field for all manufacturers to compete against. Now will manufacturers build a lighter boat? History tells us no. Basically for cost concerns. Is it cheaper to build a heavier boat in mass production? Yes. If we have a formula that will set a presidence for a bunch of new designs that all weigh in around 400lbs we are sure to get that from the manufacturers. Alot like nascar -- it did not really take off until the governing body made all things equal. Then manufacturers started making race cars to compete head to head. If you live in florida go to Daytona's speedway and go through the museum. They really play this point home!
<br>
<br>Will we fat our way out of a class? No, we bring a class format that can bring sailors from other boats to race on cats. I really in my heart of hearts believe this to be true. We have formula classes for all types of people if your under 325 then go race formula 18. It best suits your physical size. The Formula 20's give the other teams a good playing field. There are a whole lot more teams that are over 325 than under. And if we basically set rules that say this is the leveler than we can recruit to that standard. For new boats that is. Really, 325 is light when your talking about that much sail area.
<br>
<br>Now, about the main and jib comment. Barry I know you have sailed a nacra 6.0 na worrell rigged boat. Would you put a larger main and jib on that boat? No you wouldn't. Maybe a slightly bigger main (squaretop -- which is easier to control) and the stock jib (on a roller furler -- sure if thats what you want to better control the boat). No boat in F20 would compete without a spinnaker or reacher. NONE, first off it would make you last everytime and second class rules would state to be comprised of main/jib ( and/or any combination there of) and spin/reacher not to exceed 550 sq ft.
<br>
<br>Mast height should be limited to 31'6" which I believe is the longest mast in the "grandfather" fleet. If it is 32' then thats the tallest mast. And a rule should read that the main can not exceed the 31'6" or 32' (which ever is the longest mast as mentioned) height. This will allow boats like the fox and H20 to "notch" their headboard to make the squaretop main extend upto 6 inches taller than their mast which would make the sailarea the same size/height as the I20/n6.0 NA.
<br>
<br>The assoc. will have to address the future boats as they get here and deal with what exists now. If in the future it becomes cheap to build carbon boats that weigh 190lbs then and I mean THEN is the time to address that. AND at that time we could make an "HP" class that will eventually takeover F20. And I mean YEARS (5-10) down the line.
<br>
<br>For further clarity:
<br>THe basics are:
<br>
<br>Boat and crew combined weight = 760lbs min (unless corrected to)
<br>Total sail area = 550sq ft (max. -- less is legal)
<br>Corrector weight = 45lbs max -- carried on boat. (If the crew is light a couple of pounds (they can carry a camelbak but must maintain the water in the pack or in thier bodies and I mean a couple 1-3pounds)
<br>Mast height == 31'6" max (unless 32 is the tallest mast in grandfather fleet)
<br>
<br>Grandfather fleet consists of , Hobie fox, Hobie 20, Prindle 19, N6.0 Na, Mystere 6.0, Inter 20 -- these boats represent the majority of manufactured boats available in the US.
<br>
<br>Any other boat that meets the following basic rules:
<br>20 foot length
<br>8'6" beam (max)
<br>31'6" mast (max)
<br>total sail area 550 sq foot consisting of main and spinnaker/gennaker or main/jib and spinnaker/gennaker
<br>Snuffer -- legal
<br>Roller furling -- legal (jib and gennaker)
<br>Spinnaker pole (undetermined length legal)
<br>two or three man crew legal (concession to the skinny fleet)
<br>safety gear onboard at all times
<br>vests must be worn at all times
<br>masts/rudders/daggars/ and spin pole can be made out of any material as long as boat/crew meet weight minimum
<br>Masts must be water tight
<br>
<br>
<br>Thats the basics
<br>
<br>Steve<br><br>

-Hi Steve -
<br> Believe a little more refinment and input from many other active 20 sailors is needed .
<br>
<br> Again on the I-20 at 390 lbs ,--32 ft mast --for example --
<br> NO crew under 325 lbs would be allowed to race --
<br> 370 lb crews are the min. for the I-20
<br>
<br>-350 lb crews are not going to be happy at the prospect of carrying an additional 20 pounds of dead weight ,-
<br> -afraid this will deter most from 20 racing -
<br>
<br> May be best to get numerous other direct opinions from existing racing 20 sailors ,-sailmakers ,-some builders , and others with long term experience with rating systems and class racing in other types of fleets .
<br>
<br>-In 88 raced in Prosail and the Ultimate Yacht race events on the then new Hobie 21s , along with the FORMULA 40s in Prosail , and J-24S and open 30 ft monos in the Ultimate Y R events , We were on NBC Sports ,-it was exciting .
<br>
<br>-I don,t envision this type of more exclusive racing for the 20s of only top sailors , the existing F classes may become this ,
<br> Excluding all under a certain weight and making most others carry weights up to 370 , --again try this out on others ,
<br>-
<br>-One other option is just to let all 20s rate to a higher ISAF rating number by an established open rating design measurement system and set a min. crew weight , but being set at 350 believe the vast majority would by either not weighing the min 325 and not being allowed to race , or not wanting to carry weights , just prefer to race as they do now.
<br>
<br>-Having some negative experiences and slower speeds in H-20 racing and equating this to reasons of crew weight and then desiding to form a 20 class based on this crewweight conclusion , then desiding all crews should weigh 350 or more may not be the best solution .
<br>-just my 2cents -
<br> get some other input
<br>
<br> All the best -
<br> Carl <br><br>