Carl,

It's late here so I'll be brief,

1, The calculation does take the aspect ratio of the kite into consideration.

Calculation linky (EXCEL)

measureemnt method

(see D.9 Maximum Authorised Spinnaker area)

2, For wind speeds, I assume the OOD / Race officer declares if the race is a "light" or "heavy" race - does this ever get protested in the states ?

3, Agree "sail area / weight" gets hit hard in both systems.

Night all

Mark,
I'll stand up and claim 2 boats as ratings beaters!

1) Supercat 17
2) A-Cats

Hi Keith

I agree with you on the Supercat 17. It joins the IMO, the Nacra 5.0 as a ratings beater. However, the 5.0 was adjusted back to it's earlier numbers when the PN committe decided to recognize that the assumption that the boat was in racing shape (good sails etc) did not apply to these very old members of the dead boat society of cats. Consequently, they turned back the clock to the data set where these assumptions were valid and now use this data for the rating. I don't know if the same thing happend with the Supercat 17 rating.

The A cat rating has two explanations for why I don't think its a ratings beater. First and foremost is the limitation that WRCRA imposes on itself by not using the wind adjusted numbers for the Tuesday night series. The A boat has a very different performance profile as the wind builds when compared to the heavier sloop rigged boats. Its not as fast relative to other boats in breeze! Since, the DPN rating is centered around Beufort 4 conditions, the A boat sailor will consistently be able to match their relatively high rating and win. (I venture to guess that no more then 4 or 5 Tuesday nights a year have breeze in the 13 to 19 mph range! (I know I never saw 12 knots or better in the Big Boat Wed night series on the West River)

Note: measurement rating systems like texel and SCR also have a tough time fairly rating the uni rigs against the sloops.

Secondly, I think the situations is made the worse by the nature of using fixed goverment marks. Frequently, the leg's become reaches... Most boats go about the same speed on a reach and since the A boat is among the slower rated boats (of the newer boats with decent sails) in your fleet it also has a distinct advantage in these conditions.

IMO, the best solution is to use the wind adjusted ratings. The overwhelming number of races will be in Beufort 2 or Beufort 3 (the same rating number) It's pretty clear when you have strong breeze... eg you see some whitecaps and call it a B4 race.

You also have to hope that the wind gods allow you to set a bit more windward leeward courses without the long reaching legs.

Take Care
Mark

>>Note: measurement rating systems like texel and SCR also have a tough time fairly rating the uni rigs against the sloops.

As a matter of fact the reason why these issues exist in both Texel and SCHRS (ISAF) is CHOICE !

About a 1 to 1.5 years ago I worked out two simple modifications that adressed the uni-rig problem, the singlehander problems (less fast at higher speeds) and the unwillingness of the RC to use large list of winddependent numbers. And I shared the result with you Mark. Sadly both sides of the Atlantic shot down the mods mostly by decision. The European side felt that nothing was wrong with the system while the other side never gave an reply.

Fact is that the Texel/SCHRS system can easily be modified to correct the most clearing issues thus making it easily to most easy to maintain and also the most fair system around. That is unless some serious changes to the yardstick systems are made as well. In some cases very serious modifications.

Anyway I have send the system, that is based on real life findings as well as experiments performed by Bethwaite and Marchaj to the Texel committee and there is rests up till now. I've left the Texel committee as an adviser and may launch this system as freeware over the coming weeks. Now it is doing nothing and that is a pitty of all the effort that went into it.

The NMBR (New measurement based) and SMBR (Simulation based Measurement Systems) are both available to everybody that wants to see it and maybe use it for racing.

Both are highly comparable to the Texel (SCHRS) systems and used the same data with the added measurements of width. That is all. The 2 rating numbers generated work in the same way as the all other numbers. You get 1 numbers for sub trapeze conditions and 1 numbers for conditions were crews trapeze out. No windgauges required, any RC can see by looking at the boats what kind of conditions they have on their hands.

By more importantly about this post is the following.

If the sailors want a better mouse trap than they need to campaign for it themselfs. Putting your trust in national organisations will not work. Too much politics and "When I was young, we did it ..." talk.

The solution is available ; do you guys want it or not. If you don't than we can all better shut-up because we are just b!tching for b!tching sake not because we really want a better system.

Regards,

Wouter

How about the I7R? I can't imagine this boat being slower than a Hobie 20 when it carries a spinnaker, yet its P number says it is. At the area C Alter Cup races that boat beat Chris and I in an H20 over the line every race. The young man was very good and deserved to win, but we were nowhere close, even though rated faster...
David

Same with the ARC 17 we raced against at Tradewinds last year,square top and spi... always finished in the top. Actually never brought out the spi and still was fast as #$*^, sailed by Mr. Roberts.

Mark,
Regardless of what we use for race marks, we usually have a healthy dose of upwind/downwind. And looking at the numbers, I'm not sure the wind corrected figures would help much until the highest wind range. Seeing the A's perform boat for boat for two seasons against other different types of boats upwind, downwind, and reaching, I'd still say they have a favorable rating.

With the 6.0, I always hope for a little more wind and wave to see if that evens things up a bit, but those hopes are in vain - the A's perform well in those conditions too.

Come sail with us more often, you'll see what I mean!

So what everbody is saying is that only "LIKE" boats should
race against one another to make the playing field fair.

NON SPIN & SPIN Boats should not be classed togather

Low # & High # should not be classed togather

And know matter what never ever race a A-Cat

Doug Ramsey
TheMightyHobie18 #4383

yup that's pretty well correct.

we can't beat this horse some more. I want my rating to go past Journeyman.