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Ice boats, why such bendy masts #40734
12/04/04 09:48 AM
12/04/04 09:48 AM
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scooby_simon Offline OP
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scooby_simon  Offline OP
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Eric,

In this picture (from the what do you do in winter thread) I can only describe the bast bend as radical. Why do ice boats trim the mast and sails in such a way ? Why are the shrouds 'over long' ?

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Re: Ice boats, why such bendy masts [Re: scooby_simon] #40735
12/04/04 12:01 PM
12/04/04 12:01 PM
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St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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I can asume, that the mast has that radical bend, so the boat itself does not start to lean over?

Re: Ice boats, why such bendy masts [Re: scooby_simon] #40736
12/05/04 02:33 AM
12/05/04 02:33 AM
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DHO Offline
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What would Scooby Doo!?

Having the shrouds over long would depower the rig, and also make a component of the lift generated by the sail point downward, which would help the blades track better (?).

I can't see what advantage the extremly bendy mast would give. Maybe they're too lazy to put spreaders and diamond wires on there. Or maybe iceboats are so overpowered, they're not worried about loss of aerodynamic efficiency.

David Ho
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Re: Ice boats, why such bendy masts [Re: scooby_simon] #40737
12/05/04 03:49 AM
12/05/04 03:49 AM
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Brighton, UK
grob Offline
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Scooby
The same question was asked on the boat design forum
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4442&highlight=ice+boat+mast

I think the best answer came from Tom Speer:-

Quote
When you trim the sheet on landyachts (which I've sailed) and iceboats (which I haven't, much), you're really working the twist at the head more than sheeting the boom in and out. The boom mostly moves vertically, and the yachts rarely have travelers. If the boom is ever sheeted out horizontally, it's because your going very slowly - like at the start. Once the yacht gets "hooked up" it's sheeted in tight all around the course. You'll ease a bit rounding the windward mark, then back in to accelerate, etc.

So I suspect the DN masts work with the leech tension to enhance the twist control, either at the head or in the belly of the sail.



The other reason for it may be to get a downward force component from the lower part of the rig. In high winds, we loosen the stays on landyachts to let the rig tilt to leeward by 15 degrees or more. This imparts a downward component that helps keep the yacht from hiking and improves traction. The DN mast is doing this automatically - the harder the rig is loaded, the more inclined the lower portion is. Offwind, the apparent wind is less, and the rig would stand up, removing the tilt when you don't need it.

With an inclined rig, the farther the rig is located to windward, the more effective the inclination is, because the downforce has a longer lever arm. It's not practical to move the mast step to windward (although it's been tried on boats), but by putting the inclination down low, the DN mast does keep it to windward as much as possible. The upper part of the rig, which would not contribute anything to reducing the heeling moment, since it's right above the leeward runner, stands straight up for best aerodynamic efficiency:


Gareth

Re: Ice boats, why such bendy masts [Re: DHO] #40738
12/05/04 07:57 AM
12/05/04 07:57 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I think it is the downforce. I do a little of landyachting myself and sideways drift is definately a consideration. I drive in the sand so I don't have much problems with getting good sideways resistance nbut I'll bet that on ice it is a major limiting factor.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
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Re: Ice boats, why such bendy masts [Re: scooby_simon] #40739
12/05/04 09:32 AM
12/05/04 09:32 AM
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Connecticut
Eric Anderson Offline
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Eric Anderson  Offline
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Connecticut
There are 2 reasons that bendy mast work and make you go very fast. just for refrence,iceboat masts bend a hell of a lot more then this picture in a big puff. Between the mast base and the hounds 12' up the mast, the mast can be bent at least 2 feet out of column

1. The lower part of the mast bend allows the sail to impart downfource on the leeward runner which increases grip of the blade on the ice.
2. The dn mast sail combo is very dynamic. When a gust hits,instead of the boat hiking (flying a windward runner), the mast bends below the hounds,and the top of the mast twists and bends off to leeward. The top of the sail blades off. What this means is that the when tuned correctly, the DN is effortless to sail. Up wind you sheet in all the way once you are up to speed and the mast does all the rest. If the boat is hard to sail and hikes alot in puffs you tuned it wrong.

As far as why the leeward shround is loose, that should be easy to see. The mastbends, lowering the distance from the base to the hounds a few inches and the plank bends up a few inches, this alows the mast to lean a few degrees to leeward and the leeward shroud in loose.

What this all translates into is a boat that can be competitively sailed by women that weigh 110 and grandparents. Last year I finaly got fast enough to beat all of the 80 year olds! A good mast does all the work, you just hang on and steer.

Cheers,
Eric

Re: Ice boats, why such bendy masts [Re: scooby_simon] #40740
12/05/04 10:58 AM
12/05/04 10:58 AM
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Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Western Australia
I believe you may find the answer in Bethwaites book.. He, as I, recall had a chapter on twist in sailing and ice boat was part of the discussion.


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