Max width (I need) is the width measured where the boat is widest, this is not always the mainbeam often the hulls move out a bit more behind the mainbeam and maximum width is found at 2 feet behing the mainbeam.

Can you (the reader) give me the width on the following designs (That you may own yourself and is standing in the garage)

nacra 4.5
nacra 450
nacra 5.0
nacra 500
nacra 5.2
nacra 5.5
nacra 5.7
nacra 570
nacra 6.0

Prindle 15
Prindle 16
prindle 18
prindle 18-2
prindle 19

Hobie 14
Hobie 16 (NOTE, measure on the HULLs and not on the less wide steel frame)
Hobie 17
hobie 18
hobie 18 magnum ; SX and whatever other models
hobie 20
hobie 21

That is all for now as these are the most important numbers that I need now and as it is winter over here I can't get measurements myself by walking down to my own sail club.

If you are really sure about some of these width place post these numbers in a reply to this post.

Wouter, don't worry about numbers changing WRT Sailwave; it's not problem.

How about "N" for...(I literally went page by page in a dictionary listing anything that remotely made sense and stopped at Ni-chrome)

Norweigan
Novel
National
Native
Natural
Nautical
Naval
Necessary
Negotiable
Neighborly
Nerd
Neutral

New Measurement Based Rating System...

I really like "Neutral Measurement Based Rating System"

Name change NMBR ; Input please of all interested!


Lets put it this way I will run down the network and see what everybody thinks and wether official communication has progressed beyond a point of no return. If not that we still can change the name BUT only this week and only when the new name is launched together with the new website that one volunteer is building now. After that we have to stay with NMBR.

One more thing. IF we chance name then EVERYBODY needs to discard to old name and only use the new name. And even correct persons that still use the old name. The transition must be sharp and clean. Otherwise we'll end up with a mess

So INPUT please ! Every goes as long as you examplain why you think the new name fits the system better.

First suggestions

WMBR = Wind dependent Measurement Based Ratings

Spartacus = because Spartacus was a gladiator and Romen gladiators never fought another gladiator with the same armaments. Romans thought it to be very interesting to see which one of two different fighter won. And in addition to that Romans threw monolithic religious messianic (OD sailors ?) persons for the lions to see how long they last outside of their protective environment On the other hand Spartacus lost the uprising against the establishment and maybe that is not a good starting point for NMBR

Hero = after the 2004 martial arts movie, because it tries to pacify the eternal wars between rating system and unite all open class catsailing under one banner and have all speak the same language as the real life emporer Chin, that was depicted in the movie, did after uniting the all the tribes. "all under one heaven". The name China comes from his name.

....

Your turn now !

Wouter

Colin,

please wait out the next days so we have time to think more about the name change. Will give you an final answer at the end of the week.

Wouter

Norweigan? What is that, some kind of cheese? Or was it supposed to be norwegian (not to be confused with norvegia, the other cheese).. Sorry, couldnt resist.

Seriously, "Neutral Measurement Based Rating System" sounds really good to me. It does imply that the other rating systems are not neutral tough.. (but fixated on semantics should we be)

Rolf, lay a tape measure on yout Tornado for me please.

I want to max width of the platform, accurate to the last centimeter. Be careful you have to find the max width first. I think on a tornado you'll find that one abotu 0.5 mtr back from the main beams and somewhere about the sidestays. But you'll just have to find the exact point yourself

Thanks in advance

Wouter

is max width from the hulls or wings (ie H17? H18SX?)

Mary, can you give me the specs on the Hobie wave ?

Boat weight including all gear that belongs to the boat (no thing that belong to crew)

hull length (between bow and stern excluding fitting like pintles)

maximum width

sailarea area (as accurate as you can get it)

luff length of your sail when pulled tight (downhaul ?) at the luff

Mast length

And if your are using a jib also

Jib area

and projected jib luff ( this can often be quite accurately approximated by measuring the distance between top and clew in a straight line.

Thanks alot.


Wouter

If boat has wings then max width is taken over the platform with ONE fully extended wing. Of course measured in the horizontal plane. This is the right measure for the leverage a trapezing crew creates.

So fit only one wing to the boat and hang a plumb bob or something on the far much outer point on the wing near to the maximum width of the platform (no wing) itself and measure the distance between the the point on the outside of the hull on side and the plumb bob line on the other.

Gee man I never realized that NMBR could accuractely rate these boats modified in this way as well. So if one leaves off the wing and another doesn't then NMBR can accurately rate both relative to eachother.

Any FX-one sailors with wings present on this forum ? If so can he or she give us the measurement described above.

Here in the Netherlands FX-one sailors split halve between winged ones and non winged ones But I won't have access to these boats for some 5 months.

Wouter

WICH - Wind Indexed Catamaran Handicaps

"Which handicap system are you going to use?"
"Wich"
"Yes, that's right, which one?"
"Wich!"
"Um..."


PISCH - Parametric Indexed Small Catamaran Handicaps

"Which handicap system are you going to use?"
"Pisch"
"Oh right; over there on the left; let me know when you get back"
"No, Pisch!"
"Um..."

Sorry!

Whoops, my boat is on the trailer in winter storage, so I would have to assemble crossbeams+hulls first.
If you are in a hurry, I can ask some of the guys in Australia or California to do the measurement..

Wouter,

Watch your widths for the Mystere family. Like the Hobie and Performance boats, the Mystere companies in Europe and North America use similar names for boats not necessarily identical. The widths on your NMBR website erroneously list the entire Mystere and Nacra fleet at 2.44 meters or 8.0 feet. Most newer North American boats are 2.6 meters (8.5 feet) while the XL and XXL boats can be very different. Width is a fundemental component of your calculations (I think) so don't go using NMBR on races until you're sure all the specs are right!

Humor: If someone asks for their handicap will they say, "What is my NMBR number?"

Roger, Over....

I am sort of in a hurry, so I think we do need to track down an Aussie or something.

You know what I will ask Stephen Medwell (Tornado-Alive)

Stephen are you reading this ?

Wouter

David,

I'm aware of the issues with the width that is why I'm trying to find a person who wants to spend a few hours looking up all the widths. It is not difficult but it needs to be done. Note how the 2.44 mtr are printed in FAT characters indicating that these are the unconfirmed default values. So anybody want to help us (David, Mark, Peter, Jake, myself and an anonymous) out here. Only a few hours of looking up / acquiring the width data on boats listed ?



But we need to know exactly as I think Inter 17 is 2.55 mtr and the FX-one is 2.5 mtr.





Width is not an input factor fro the sub trapeze group of ratings so these can be used without any problems and this group is already more accurate than the two other measurement ratings systems as I have eliminated a few "problems' that these systems suffer from.

It is only the "trapezing" group dat suffers PARTIALLY from the incomplete width data. Ofcourse the factors like crew weight (double hander / single hander) and differences in sail area time mast height ARE accurately included. So I dare say that the NMBR trapezing group is also more accurate than the two other measurement rating system already. From tests it appears that it also beats yardsticks systems.

So what am I arguing here ? First we are already "accurate" to "more accurate" than others despite the fact that we haven't reached full possible accuracy yet. Secondly why choose to NOT use a more accurate system even though it has not reached it maximum accuracy yet. There are already benefits in using it now and there will only be more benefits in using it later.

I would love to start with all the specs right but for that I need a volunteer that looks up all the width data.

I'm hoping that we can get a few widths taken at Tradewinds so that least all the regulary raced boats all have highly accurate ratings.

And then of course during 2005 we will get out that last bit of accuracy by fine-tuning the system. By this I mean things like :"IF we find that spi's improve performance more in light winds than in heavy THAN we can adjust the ratings accordingly" . But truly by this time we are talking VERY high accuracy levels.

Ohh before I forget that is why I posted the message about the nacra, prindle and hobie boat. Just to get a head start.

Wouter,

What is wrong with "What is my NMBR" ? (pronounced as "what is my Number ?")


After what you are saying is correct both in meaning and grammar.

"What is my New Measurement Based Rating ?"

Wouter

NMBR is pretty well under way now, look at http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/NMBR/NMBR_vs_7_tabled_ratings.xls

for the intermediate results. Over 250 design and design variation rated with most all of the frequently raced boat having accurate width data. Only some rare boats have still some temporary data but how many times are Topcats or aquacats raced ?


Also several specific US designs like the Isotope, Wave and Nacra 5.5 uni have been added.

But most importantly NMBR has a rating for the US I-20 !

I'm still looking for good data on the Nacra 6.0 NA, the supercats and the CFR20. So any help here will much appreciated.

To any clubs and individuals using the system on a trial basis. Please report any offsets or anomelies to me. I will immediately investigate the issue and device, together with he others, a solution. However expectation is that only in the truly rare cases you will find any issue. Mostly because we also don't know everything about an aquacat or aesticat 500.

Good luck and I hope your club racing improves with the new system

Please note a name change is in the works for NMBR and soon after that it will be taken up in Sailwave.

Wouter

Everybody is allowed to vote in this one.

It is about the new name for the NMBR rating system. Under this name the system will be put up for evaluation at the various national sailing organisation as well various rating systems. The last so they may learn from it.

NMBR meant "New Meaurement Based Ratings" But that was only its development code name. It's project name. We now need a name that is easy to use and that is a good identifier for the system that was developped in the NMBR project.

I will have myself be guided by the outcome of the vote, while still reserving the right to choose a different name than the winner.

The list supplied in the vote is a listing of the better suggestions that were send to me.

Please note that a name like OCR will be used as "OCR rating system" while a name Like Socrates will be used as "The Socrates number for design ... " Or as in the case of SCORING "Your SCORING number is ..."




For a read-up on Socrates go to :

http://www.philosophypages.com/ph/socr.htm

I like the fact that the Philosopher Socrates is characterized by :

"In his use of critical reasoning, by his unwavering commitment to truth, and through the vivid example of his own life, .... Socrates set the standard for all subsequent Western philosophy."

" ... insistently questioning their unwarranted confidence in the truth of popular opinions, ..." (My boat is fastest anyone ?)

" ... Socrates pointedly declined to accept payment for his work with students ... "


Aren't these great creeds by which the new rating system and open class racers should live by ?

And no I'm not the one who thought up this name. It was Norbert Kooij, an experienced Race Officier here in the Netherlands.


Now lets all vote quickly so that Colin can implement this new rating system into Sailwave so we can use it in 2005


Wouter