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Re: sorry [Re: Mark Schneider] #4241
11/28/01 09:27 AM
11/28/01 09:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Mark
<br> Please excuse the many typos ,and poor eyesight , have to go get glasses ,but keep putting it off . . promise to hit spellcheck if drafting actual class rules.
<br>
<br>-Believe the disatisfaction with open racing and Porthmouth ratings is partially responcible for the decline of the sport . -
<br>
<br>-Hope you are beginning to comprehend how much more systematic and how we can all relate through design measurement more readily to form unified potential racing classes ,-, --just maybe the long term solution to the ratings problems universally you mention.---A common language of math and design formula.
<br>
<br>--Your original proposal and now recomendation of -
<br> {Race for a year and see where you are. IF one boat is dominant because of technical boat design.... the formula class will fold} --
<br>
<br>--The proposal is as you suggest a receipy for failure ,and am presently unsure if this is the intent ,
<br>
<br> All the best to you regardless of our disagreement on Porthmouth ratings , and your insistance on their necessity.
<br>
<br> Carl -
<br>
<br> link to the F -18 N A web site ,-
<br>
<br>-http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/naf_18/
<br><br><br>

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Can't have it both ways [Re: sail6000] #4242
11/28/01 11:01 AM
11/28/01 11:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Carl.... I agree with the glasses upgrade... i keep puting my exam off as well.
<br>
<br>--Your original proposal and now recomendation of -
<br>{Race for a year and see where you are. IF one boat is dominant because of technical boat design.... the formula class will fold} --
<br>
<br>--The proposal is as you suggest a receipy for failure ,and am presently unsure if this is the intent ,
<br>
<br>Hi Carl
<br>You can't have it both ways. Either the Texel rating formula accurately rates the boat or it does not. If the boats are rated equal... then you have a formula class.... if the rating is in error... so that one boat doiminates... then the formula was wrong and so its the end of that formula class and you revert back to handicap racing.
<br>
<br>What evidence is there that the texel ratings are off.
<br>
<br>The evidence that wouter reported showed that the boats are very very close in speed. The only name that I recognize is Peter Vink and he is a noted sailmaker over there. It looks like the f20's (fox and inter are very close to the Tornado)
<br>
<br>Grand father the following boats. Mystere 6.0 Xl 95 Tornado 95, (only 10 foot beam in the class) Nacra 6.0 NA 94 or 95?, Fox 94 and EU and NA I20 94. create a box rule with a beam at 8.5 beam for any new designs This is the easiest and only way in my view to get to formula . Allow all boats to come up to the 95 rating such as the Nacra 6.0 NA I would target the bigger teams... and set the class min at 350. then go race. The I20's are the dominant US Class they would be scored on their one design and those meeting the min weight rule would also be eligle for formula 20.
<br>
<br>Where do you disagree here.???
<br>(Other then freezing significant development in this class.)
<br>And attempting to bring in the older boats)
<br>
<br>I still think beleive that the most important part here is locking in the race venues. Cat fight and Spring Fever bill themselves as run what you brung and we will sort it out on handicap. I agree with you. .. run what you brung in a formula 20 race would be even better. If this philosophy was available at the local level we would be far more succesful.
<br>
<br>Take Care
<br>Mark<br><br>

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crac.sailregattas.com
Re: My proposal [Re: Mark Schneider] #4243
11/28/01 11:27 AM
11/28/01 11:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Mike Hill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mark,
<br>
<br>I agree that most H20's won't be moving into the F20 class. The H20's already have a strong class where we often get 10 boats at a start. Last year in Des Moines we had 20 H20's. My point is that you won't attract these boats so I wouldn't worry about them.
<br>
<br>As far as the racks go they sound like fun and all but it's a little blue sky to think that everyone will buy racks to race the 1 Tornado that might show up. Tornado's are the Olympic Cat that like's one design racing. They also aren't interested in the F20 class in my opinion.
<br>
<br>On Crew Weight: Since the min. on the Cat III F18 rule is 330lbs, maybe the min. for the F20 should be 350 or so. Of course we would allow teams to add weight to come up to the 350 level.
<br>
<br>I don't believe F18 will be as fast as F20. I've seen the best race both boats boat for boat and they are definitely different as far as speed goes.
<br>
<br>Mike Hill
<br>
<br><br><br>

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Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: My proposal [Re: Mike Hill] #4244
11/28/01 11:53 AM
11/28/01 11:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Thanks Mike
<br>
<br>I agree most top tornado's won't be interested in a f20 class. There are only 15 or 20 boats racing at the national level and you don't see them racing locally. I don't sail at that national level... for the local racing an f20 rule that is inclusive would be terrific.
<br>
<br>The most important reason for keeping the Tornado involved is for promotoers and sponsors. Sailing means Olympics or America's cup... Occasiionally the Volvo race or the single handed sailor gets some attention but really... Olympics is the big hook Without participation from the Olympic guys it would be hard to market and expand the support. Those guys would love a way to leverage their sponsorship and perhaps get some funding for their olympic campaigns.
<br>
<br>It may never happen but there is no sense in crippling the marketing push before you even start.
<br>
<br>I am very pleased that you see the racing niche that the NaF18 class has just defined. IE. 350 lbs that you can weight correct up to/ I think makes sense.
<br>
<br>Just curious.. If a H20 sailor is looking for the next challenge... which way do you think they go. f18 or f20.
<br>i have sailed Nacra's F18 a couple of times... the sheer power that I am used to on my Tornado and on the I20 is just not there. Ratings wise... an H20 to f18 move is literaly sideways.
<br>
<br>Take Care
<br>Mark
<br>
<br><br><br>

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Re: Can't have it both ways [Re: Mark Schneider] #4245
11/28/01 01:04 PM
11/28/01 01:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Mark and Mike
<br>
<br> Agree mark you can,t ,-It seems your trying to have it both ways , using Texel as a class rating , but not understanding the advantages of it applied to all racing in the US , --
<br> --CONFLICTING IDEALS -
<br>
<br>-Again ISAF or Texel are formulated and intended rating systems for ALL cat designs .
<br> You are confusing rating systems with class definition .
<br> The 18 or 16 classes did not say ,-o k we have a rating number here is our class . Again ,--please look at their pages of rules defining what a CLASS is , -again the rule beaters are numerous if you do not define a class , -am suprized you can not understand the need for class definition . Again why would 16s and 18s bother if it were not needed to some extent. -
<br> All cat designs within the defined class would rate within an acceptable margin of ISAF tEXEL rating , once refined.
<br>
<br>-COMPRENDA -
<br>
<br>-Hi Mike -
<br> thanks ,-some H sailors may become more interested over time ,---was a H-18 sailor for a decade or so myself, -,do like the look of the Tiger.
<br>
<br>-If you talk to some of the top dog sailors , -they will tell you the F-18S will have comparble performance in the upper wind ranges , --different opinions ,--we will find out next season .
<br>
<br>--Question ,--should the proposed 20 class consider 2 catagories ,-10 ft and 8.5 beam .
<br>
<br> Again I don,t have all the answers , or resources to put this together , we currently have no major dealer or mfg. support or specification agreement , if we did have a base of boats and mfg. this would be done.
<br>
<br>-Again a very difficult set of existing conditions. -
<br> People keep confusing the fact that we did not set these existing conditions or are responcible for them ,-or feel the need to compound them by repeating the same errors and existing design flaws or endorcing them .
<br>
<br> Carl
<br>-<br><br>

Re: My proposal [Re: Mark Schneider] #4246
11/28/01 02:19 PM
11/28/01 02:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Mike Hill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mark,
<br>
<br>F18 or F20 depends on the H20 sailor. If the sailor is going to keep the same crew he will probably opt for the F18. If the sailor was looking to move into a more powerful boat they probably would go the F20 route.
<br>
<br>Honestly I don't believe you will see a many converts from the H20 ranks. H20's are made up of many husband wife teams that don't want a chute. There will be some that want a chute and there will be some that are heavy for the H20 that like the F20 idea. My guess would be an even split between F18 and F20. Many H20 sailors buy and sail the boat because it is the biggest fleet. They won't move until they see a fleet possiblity for the F18/F20 boats.
<br>
<br>Mike Hill
<br>H20 #791
<br><br><br>

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Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Can't have it both ways [Re: sail6000] #4247
11/28/01 02:29 PM
11/28/01 02:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Mike Hill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
I don't believe Texel is the way to go to equalize boats. It may give you some idea of speed potential but it doesn't equalize the boats. Texel has no windrange's. Boats then that do well in light air suffer in heavy and vice-verse.
<br>
<br>On Comparing F18/F20 speed. On a very windy Midwinters with Lambert/Patsy on the F18 and Nigel/Alex on the F20 it looked like the F18 was very fast but came in a little behind the F20. The F18 beat some slower I20's but the top dogs were seperated by a few minutes.
<br>
<br>I believe we have to settle on an 8.5 beam or this just won't work at all.
<br>
<br>Mike Hill
<br>H20 #791
<br><br><br>

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Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: - ways [Re: Mike Hill] #4248
11/28/01 03:41 PM
11/28/01 03:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
You are right Mike .
<br>
<br> For this to work as other existing Formula classes is to get the manufacturers on board .
<br>
<br> Hobie should be willing to upgrade the Fox , it will not sell otherwise in N A , it is an excellent basic design --We need Mystere , -Boyer, -Ventilo ,-Stealth , and several other excellent mfg. on board .
<br> Basic I-20 specs ,but upgraded slightly - 380 boat weight , -some minor upgrades to allow mfg. room to improve .
<br>
<br> I would be very happy to get any active racing F-racing going , and help any of the classes , this will be good for the sport.
<br>
<br>-Start a new post and work through , crew weight -
<br> The F-18 did a great job , most of the work is complete ,it may be largely a matter of filling in correct specs for 20s -
<br> <br><br>

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