Thanks for the endorsement Mike its good to hear a fellow H20 sailor chime in that the weight under 350 is too low.
<br>
<br>Steve<br><br>

-Hi guys
<br>
<br> I,m still open , but would ask for complete logical answers to the following questions as they apply to the class goal of EQUAL FAIR SAILING FOR ALL ,--
<br>
<br>-1-How is a 350 rule fair to a 400 LB team ? at a 50 LB DISADVANTAGE .
<br>
<br>-2- We have existing boat weights ranging 30 40 50 LBs and potentially more , -are you saying 50 LB boat weight differences are ignored under your proposal ,---
<br>
<br>-How are boat weight equalized ?
<br>
<br>-Why elimate new lighterweight HP designs from the class ?
<br>
<br> 4-If a total weight is applied how do you provide FAIR sailing through this boat weight and crew weight range , -A 400 LB team on the heaviest boat would be more than 100 total LBs heavier with the same sail area in accordance to your proposal , --How can this possibley be marketed ,-accepted or in any regard construed as FAIR ,
<br>
<br> 5--Why unessesarily eliminate 3/4 of the potential racing sailors from the 20 class ,--including junior sailors , needed to revive the sport . -You are eliminating most all father son and daughter teams not to mention most all women sailors -
<br> how does this play to sponsors advertisers and the general public ,--{the chovenist fat guy class ? }
<br>
<br> Why tell 3/4 of potential racing sailors to go somewhere else ?
<br>
<br>-
<br>-If you can answer these logically and completely as applied to FAIR SAILING FOR ALL ,-then please propose this rule in its entirety for review -
<br> thanks -
<br> <br><br>

>>I,m still open , but would ask for complete logical answers to the following questions as they apply to the class goal of EQUAL FAIR SAILING FOR ALL ,--
<br>
<br>
<br>Okay
<br>
<br>-1-How is a 350 rule fair to a 400 LB team ? at a 50 LB DISADVANTAGE .
<br>
<br>
<br>With a 300 lbs minimum the 400 lbs crew would be at a 100 lbs disadvantage. And no, I haven't overlooked your combined crew + craft weight proposal that NO other formula class has except ... well .. lets call it the smallest formula in existance. That proposal doesn't really work for you don't have any lightweight designs that would make a 400 pound crew equal in combined weight to a 300 pound crew. Not are builders likely to make those.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>5--Why unessesarily eliminate 3/4 of the potential racing sailors from the 20 class ,--including junior sailors , needed to revive the sport . -You are eliminating most all father son and daughter teams not to mention most all women sailors -
<br>how does this play to sponsors advertisers and the general public ,--{the chovenist fat guy class ? }
<br>
<br>
<br>The answer is simple to this. Because these groups are not serviced by a 20 footer. I would like to see you put two youths on I-20, after the first gust you can be assured that they will never set a foot on a catamaran again. Same goes for women.
<br>
<br>And honestly why are you shooting among another class's pigeons ? The F18 and that other class are happy to let you have the upper spectrum of the weight range, now in return leave them the mid and lower weights or you're heading for a conflict that will hurt us all.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>Why tell 3/4 of potential racing sailors to go somewhere else ?
<br>
<br>Same question worded twice.
<br>
<br>Because they are not your target group. And let the F18 and other classes have their piece of spectrum.
<br>
<br>
<br>-If you can answer these logically and completely as applied to FAIR SAILING FOR ALL ,-then please propose this rule in its entirety for review -
<br>thanks -
<br>
<br>You're welcome
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br><br><br>

The spin sheet of a 24 or 25 square meter chute in a breeze is substantial.
<br>Setting aside the crew weight issues or boat weight/sailarea calculation solutions for a moment.
<br>
<br>How many teams on the I20 are/were competiive with women crew last season?
<br>
<br>How many Tornado teams are competitive with women crew now?
<br>
<br>Not many... I doubt that its over 20%of the I20 fleet and I can think of only one team in Miami on tornaod'os (Scace and Scace)
<br>
<br>This is not to say that women can't or should not compete here but to simply observe that they are not choosing to compete in these classes now. The F18 sheet loads are much less and sheer upper body strength is not at the premium as on a 20 footer. I( already know of at least one very good team at 325 on an I20's considering a move to an F18 because of this issue).
<br>
<br>Why should an iF20 class try to be all things to all people?
<br>
<br>With a 350 minimum light teams can add dead weight and race if they choose. Heavy teams must change personel to race.
<br>
<br><br><br>

Hi wout -you wrote -The answer is simple to this. Because these groups are not serviced by a 20 footer. I would like to see you put two youths on I-20, after the first gust you can be assured that they will never set a foot on a catamaran again. Same goes for women. ---oh wout ,--whewww
<br>
<br> this is silly ,-people will choose a boat brand type style size {mono}-cat they like mainly because of availability , and friends relatives sailors in their area encouraging them to sail , or an active fleet in their location .
<br>
<br>--As to the other comments -Women won,t sail 20s --
<br> there have been 6 women in the Worrell , I raced it in 2000 with Sandra , who could most likely kick your a## - and races a 20 ,currently .
<br> I often sail with one of my 3 sons ages 10 -7 and 5 who always have a great time on the Inter 20 w chute, though they steer while I raise and snuff it. -
<br>
<br>-I think the 16s HP are great cats , I would love to race one {singlehanded } and I,m sure fly by many 18s and 20s , -
<br> I have tryed to be positive and would be happy to help support F-16 ,-,----but this again is not the way to promote the 16 class . -I will help with the 18s if I can ,--Matt and Tom that wrote a good part of the rules are good friends . They did a great job .
<br>
<br> If this total weight to sail area is enacted and becomes as successfull as I believe,-- it can easily be applied to all Formula classes , still maintaining ones within if desired ,--
<br> In discussing this concept over the last 2 years understood this was the real goal ,--A comprehensive FORMULA system in 3 Length catagories that would include the vast majority of cat racing sailors. ----we just have different concepts ,--
<br> Lighten up .
<br>
<br> The best aspect of the 20 rule is allowing entry level racers , who will most likely begin with stock older less expensive boats with smaller sail areas , --Once they get better skills they move up . --This is how we begin to grow partisipation in the sport .
<br>
<br>-Let me know how to help wout ,--continueing this type of diologue is childish .
<br>
<br> regards
<br> Carl<br><br>

Wooter you're such an idiot.
<br>I understand that English is not your first language but it isn't mine either.
<br>
<br>If you understood the sail area to weight relation proposed you wouldn't make such erroneous comments regariding 400 pound teams being at a 100 pound disadvantage over a 300 pound team.
<br>
<br>You continuously offer extreme and most of the time unrealistic examples like your 'two youths' argument and then you so often back things up with flawed mathematics. And, if you don't like women, that's tough.
<br>
<br>What do you see wrong with the iF20 rules principle.
<br>
<br>marc
<br><br><br>

-The lack of logic here and common sence is a bit much ,
<br> excluding 3/4 of sailors , never allowing them to partisipate ,
<br> what are you thinking ?
<br> -We want people in the sport not exclude them from it .
<br>
<br> Is it the old addage ,--what fun is it having a club or class unless you can exclude people from it ? -
<br>
<br> Mike Worrell is getting more female partisipants and iquiries each year. -We need to encourage this , this is good for the sport , ---My son Kyle and I won the second leg of the Red Fox this year in blustery conditions over an excellent field of 35 cats , several natl, champs inc with CRAM . uNDER YOUR RULES VERSION WE WOULD BE EXCLUDED FROM EVER PARTICIPATING , !!!
<br>
<br> sheet lines are not a problem , you can switch off skip and crew with spin and traveler , -you can add a two to one easily , -
<br>Sailing cats requires some athletic ability , its not monos sitting around slugging down beers ,
<br> You and wout are really offering some obscure silly arguements , --therefor we must be on the right track !!!
<br> just jokin with ya -
<br> I've seen you sail so don.t think Sandra can kick yours , pretty close though .
<br> any others today ,-have fun
<br> Carl<br><br>

Mark,
<br>You'd be surprised how many people(men) I know who are under 175 pounds.
<br>Handling spinakers ? You should ask Karen-Ann Xavier what she thinks. She has been sailing with Al Maguire for some time now flying a chute. I am not sure if she hits 125 on the scale.
<br>I also know of people sailing 20' cats considering moving to an 18,including myself. The reason is not a question of not being able to handle the 20 but looking for a lighter boat to tow around on a hitch and on the beach and also because of the potential of the class growth.
<br>
<br>"Why should an iF20 class try to be all things to all people? "
<br>
<br>To be fair.
<br>
<br>With respect
<br>marc<br><br>

-1-How is a 350 rule fair to a 400 LB team ? at a 50 LB DISADVANTAGE .
<br>
<br>Well this is better than sailing against a team with a Min. at 325lbs where the difference is 75lbs. So I would think it would be a positive step for a 400lbs team. Minus racks or a total boat+crew weight answer I don't see anything else that could help a 400lbs crew.
<br>
<br>-2- We have existing boat weights ranging 30 40 50 LBs and potentially more , -are you saying 50 LB boat weight differences are ignored under your proposal ,---
<br>
<br>I seriously doubt there are 50lbs boat weight differences that are not due to water weight or 1/2" lines used all around. However i am assuming most factory boats would weigh in within about 25lbs. The weight of the hulls is about 100lbs each. The rest is in fixed weight pretty much. If I water logged my boat for a week and got it weighed and then dryed it out how would you stop the cheating.
<br>
<br>-How are boat weight equalized ?
<br>
<br>They are not equalized. Buyer beware.
<br>
<br>-Why elimate new lighterweight HP designs from the class ?
<br>
<br>They don't fit in with the other designs. However the class is going to continue to move in this direction by lowering the min. weight over a period of years to keep older boats competitive.
<br>
<br>4-If a total weight is applied how do you provide FAIR sailing through this boat weight and crew weight range , -A 400 LB team on the heaviest boat would be more than 100 total LBs heavier with the same sail area in accordance to your proposal , --How can this possibley be marketed ,-accepted or in any regard construed as FAIR ,
<br>
<br>This is not about completely fair racing. There are numerous issues that have nothing to do with weight that make this racing unfair. Such as sailmakers cutting different sails and using the best one for expected conditions for the regatta. Another example would be the home builder that comes up with a superior hull design or board design. Or the guy that shows up with new sails at every regatta. It just isn't fair!!! Life isn't fair .
<br>
<br>5--Why unessesarily eliminate 3/4 of the potential racing sailors from the 20 class ,--including junior sailors , needed to revive the sport . -You are eliminating most all father son and daughter teams not to mention most all women sailors -
<br>how does this play to sponsors advertisers and the general public ,--{the chovenist fat guy class ? }
<br>Why tell 3/4 of potential racing sailors to go somewhere else ?
<br>
<br>Not marketed too the smaller sailors. They already have an F18 class or numerous others. Nothing fat about two 175lbs men. Do we want to continue this quest for 150lbs guys that are interested in sailing and know how to sail. Most of the guys I know that weigh 150 are long distance runners without the time for sailing.
<br>
<br>I tried to be logical and complete, Carl. Not sure if I was successful. I'm not sure this is the right road to go down but am still waiting to hear a more logical direction. And I have read all of your posts Carl and respect your opinion greatly.
<br>
<br>Mike Hill
<br>H20 #791
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>

Hi Mike ,
<br> having fun ,
<br> You seem to be missing the basic concept Mike ,
<br>
<br> The proposed rule is a total weight to sail area Formula -
<br>
<br>-If you have a 30 LB heavier boat and are 20 Lbs heavier than av then , according to the comprehensive formula chart you can sail with proportionally more sail area than the 50 LB lighter team ,---
<br> With example numbers of 1 per jib -3 per main ,and 10 per spin , in 10 LB increments , the 50 LB total more weight team would be allowed 5 more sq ft of jib,--15 more sq ft of main sail area ,--and 50 more in spin area, --again these numbers need some refinement and should rate equally through the entire range in ISAF -and Texel ratings as a check , -but also adding some class rules due to additional definitions required .
<br>
<br>-Not sure what your post is referring to, hope this helps ,
<br>
<br>-All formula classes require some weight to sail area trade offs ,-this total boat and crew weight formula is more comprehensive , and can include lightweight boats .
<br>
<br> A heavier boat team with proportionally more rated sail area than a lighter team should have the opportunity to be equal and fair , -
<br> do realize the world is not ,--thanks for clearifying that ,
<br> jokin -
<br>
<br> W F is promoting the 18HP Formula Class -even before regular F-18 has begune. -18s will be splitt again , We had better find some comprehensive solution to allow all to race equally together , -
<br> -HP 18S- have no jibs and taller masts,but believe areas can be traded off and rate equally , -sail areas are smaller on this lighter version , so are sheet loads ,--which they would also be in the proposed 20 class. -
<br>
<br>-Getting a handle on the bigger picture ,then comprehending all the problems clearly is half the battle ,---
<br> a comprehensive long term solution with the goal of FAIR sailing ,-{or providing the opportunity for it } is then the class objective .
<br>
<br> A total weight to sail area rule provides this ,
<br> a 350 Lb rule does not ,
<br>
<br> If you are 50 LBs heavier is there some objection to a 50 sq ft larger chute ,-15 sq ft larger main ,-and 5 jib , -{example #}
<br>
<br>-Please state how this could be construed as not equal ,-
<br> Your choise of boat and weight and set up any way or combination you prefer.. -
<br>
<br> thanks
<br> Carl
<br> <br><br>

.... would be happy to help support F-16 ,-,----but this again is not the way to promote the 16 class . -I will help with the 18s if I can ,....
<br>
<br>
<br>Than please avoid conflict and leave these classes their part of the weight spectrum. That is the best help we can get.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>If this total weight to sail area is enacted and becomes as successfull as I believe,-- it can easily be applied to all Formula classes , still maintaining ones within if desired ,--
<br>
<br>
<br>Well, I understand that system. I wish you luck in selling the concept. I had already a difficult time selling the simplified concept of smaller is equally fast. I got there, but a I doubt wether I could have sold a more complex system. Maybe you can however.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>In discussing this concept over the last 2 years understood this was the real goal ,--A comprehensive FORMULA system in 3 Length catagories that would include the vast majority of cat racing sailors. ----we just have different concepts ,--
<br>Lighten up .
<br>
<br>
<br>I think we're still on the same concept and the progress has been very good so far. We're almost there in creating a complete and all spanning formula framework. But formulae are popping up all over the place and try to conquer the same weightranged, this can easily undo all that has been achieved.
<br>
<br>So I ask leave the other weight ranges to the other classes.
<br>
<br>This F20 is a 20 foot class and 20 ft. are more suited to heavy crews than the other classes and vice versa. Now I'm sure that you can sail 20 ft. with your kid and wife, but it is not the class for them. So don't try to make it their class. Else the three length formula framework will be undermined.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>>The best aspect of the 20 rule is allowing entry level racers , who will most likely begin with stock older less expensive boats with smaller sail areas , --Once they get better skills they move up . --This is how we begin to grow partisipation in the sport .
<br>
<br>
<br>I really differ in this respect I really don't think that 20 ft. are "the best aspect"of the 20 ft. class. Ask any tornado sailor, ask John P.. They will all tell you that these designs are just to powerfull for beginners. And also too expensive, even second hand.
<br>
<br>No the best aspect of the 20 ft was to cater the adrenalin junkies as was the first intend of the class.
<br>
<br>
<br>-Let me know how to help wout ,--continueing this type of diologue is childish .
<br>
<br>
<br>Indeed, Leave us our weight range. Fill the need at the top end with this F20 class. Leave mid ranges to F18 and the light to mid and solo to F16. Than we'll have a balanced setup.
<br>
<br>If we get into a direct conflict here than we'll kill eachother off for nothing for light to medium crews are unlikely to be really competitive anyway in the 20 ft. range.
<br>
<br>regards,
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

Hi Marc
<br>
<br>First point. your comments to Wouter were WAY out of line and were a personal attack. I hope you will apologize!
<br>
<br>I understood him to mean that a 400 lb team on a 295 min boat like a H20 would be at a bigger disadvantage then on a H20 with a 350 lb minimum. That is it.
<br>
<br>You may agree / disagree or ask him to clarify his point. The attack by ridicule and insult was pointless.
<br>
<br>Second point
<br>your point about light teams, Women and teenagers racing on 20 foot boats misses the general point.
<br>1) I also know mixed teams that kick my butt. Greg and Casey Scace come to mind. Can Casey out grind my crew on the boat doubtful does she outgrind other crews perhaps. Is it the critical factor... no. Does this debate have any relevance no.. Attacking the general argument with an example is trivial.
<br>
<br>I am pointing out the observation that MOST couple teams are not racing 20 foot boats with spinnakers. Apparently, most couple teams are not looking to race 20 foot boats with chutes in the future based on conversations with the local dealer AND by observing the Euro I20 racing at texel. Are some couple teams looking to race 20 footers?. Probably. I pointed out one. You note Alan and Karen Ann. Carl and Sandra raced. The exceptions are not disproving the general point.
<br>
<br>I pointed out one reason that couple teams might not want to race a 20 footer. Sheet loads as one being relevant to racing the boat around triangles where doublers are too slow to jibe and on a closed course crash jibes are possible.
<br>
<br>You suggested
<br>Boat weight.... No... the F18 is heavier by rule then a 390lb I20.
<br>Trailer width. No. 8 feet 6 inches versus 8 feet 3 inches ... Both legal in North America.
<br>
<br>Potential for class growth.... Hmm... Well that is the big issue now isn't it.
<br>Why would they think that the new F18 would be MORE POPULAR then staying in an existing 20 foot type class.
<br>
<br>Perhaps they conclude.
<br>1) their team weight is close to optimum for the class.
<br>2) they can do more then "handle the boat"... they could be competitive at the elite level.
<br>3) Why not on an F20 boat??? Perhaps they will not be limited by some physical factor. weight, strength, endurance, height.. rather they will be limited by their sailing skill. (which is the point after all)
<br>4) perhaps they judge that the Fun Factor is higher on less powerful boat.
<br>5) Perhaps, all their competitors are moving down. so.. they want to join them.
<br>
<br>All are quite plausible reasons.
<br>
<br>My take home point is an obvious one in that the sailors are choosing an optimal design for them. Crew weight is one of several parameters in their decision.
<br>
<br>AND…Most importantly... CREW WEIGHT is one of the things that a class can control easily.
<br>
<br>The idea… is that just as in Hobie 16 one design racing.. you can set a floor on weight and Enhance competitive fairness. As wouter cleverly noted… why go shoot at the F18’s pigeons. Why not target a different segment of the market.
<br>
<br>Finally, What is to stop Alan and Karen Ann from adding weight to their cross bar and racing at 350… are they more or less at a competitive disadvantage as a team at 400 lbs in the proposed if20 class with a minimum at 350.
<br>
<br>Fairness is in the eye of the beholder I guess.
<br>There are options of grandfathering in teams, boats etc etc. Right now the debate is over the general philosophy.
<br>
<br>Obviously we disagree. I suggest that we take a measure of the possible f20 sailors and see where we stand.
<br>
<br>Take Care
<br>Mark
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>

Carl,
<br>
<br>I forgot about the weight to sailarea proposal. I don't believe that requiring many different mains and jibs is appropriate. Possibly we could vary Chute size for weight but this may be tough to equalize. Whatever rule we come up with there will be a perceived sweet spot just as there is now with the F18 class. Max sail area at 340lbs in F18 is thier perceived sweet spot. I am not against this concept but I would like to see some real tank tests/ wind tunnel tests/ real life experience to back up the numbers otherwise we would be shooting in the dark.
<br>
<br>My personal belief is that we are already at a 350 min. That is a good size for two men on the boat (175+175). Some teams may weigh in at (175+200)375 but not really notice the difference on the boat. I've never been able to notice less than 25lbs difference having an effect on performance. So my view is that varying sail area may have more of a negative effect than a positive effect. Of course this also is operating on the premise that teams that weigh less than 350 will be more attracted to the F18 class where it tops out at 340. And also assuming you can add whatever you want to come up to 350 if you would like to race in the F20 class.
<br>
<br>Getting back to boat weight I think it would be too hard to police this issue and we would have people pushing the rules too often causing major discontent among the sailors. In a perfect world it would be nice but you and I both know we don't have time to weigh boats at weekend regattas.
<br>
<br>Carl said:
<br>-If you are 50 LBs heavier is there some objection to a 50 sq ft larger chute ,-15 sq ft larger main ,-and 5 jib , -{example #}
<br>
<br>-Please state how this could be construed as not equal ,-
<br>
<br>Ok, I'll try to explain. Take someone that I regularly beat at a regatta where we sail one-design. He finds a 225lbs crew that doesn't know how to sail and gets the adjustment sails factor. He then proceeds to beat me in all the races. My only conclusion to stay competitive is to buy new sails and get a 225lbs crew myself. Does this seem fair?
<br>
<br>Mike Hill
<br>H20 #791
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>

Hi mark -
<br> Because you do not see many female , smaller sailors or junior sailors in your area is no reason to exclude them from racing any boat they choose , -
<br> This is very faulty logic and again very inconsistant thinking applied , --you can,t have it both ways , ---20s aren.t o k -but 18 H P CATS ARE ? ---lets be honest and realistic .
<br>
<br>-The other aspect you and wout are touting that we have to swabble over dwindling numbers of sailors , -THIS IS ABSURD , --Numerous racing sailors are interested , several have posted and stated they will return to racing and many new sailors will begin ,--as I mentioned I have 3 myself,-They need to be able to race in any class , and not be excluded from them .
<br> If your and Wouts philosophy is applied { glass half empty }
<br> and foolish exclusionary rules are put in place it will certainly be a self fofilling prophecy, doomed to fail just as one or the other 18 classes are bound to as they become more diluted. My bet is the heavier.
<br>
<br>-As my 5 year old says ,-{-sink about it }
<br>
<br> take care
<br> Carl<br><br>

Hi Mike
<br> your starting to get there -
<br>
<br> The majority of existing sailors have weighed their boats if you read their posts ,--I certainly trust you to be honerable and the vast majority of people who race , . Again this chart is not that difficult to comprehend ,
<br>
<br>-The tank testing and sweet spot you refer to changes constantly with each different weather pattern wave and current condition on each point of sail differently for the vast array of boats we have and will have in the future .
<br>
<br> Formula racing --all --IS DEVELOPEMENTAL to some degree .
<br> The race course becomes a giant test tank and wind tunnel ,
<br> -At least with Formula we can discover which combinations really do work best in each varying condition, -
<br> THATs the game boat choise modification of your choosing and set up is a part of it . Some will whine , some always do even racing one design as we all know.
<br>
<br>-Your conclusion that you will need heavy crew is interesting , Why would you believe this when all boats would rate equally , the heavier boat with more sail area is not necessarily faster , --Have you ever sailed the same start with an A Class cat , with only 150 sq ft of sail area, ? . -Are you saying ISAF and TEXEL rating are totally innaccurate ?
<br>
<br>-You can reverse your scenario and apply it to one design to min weight , only there you have a ligit complaint as there is no weight compensation to sail area.
<br>
<br> thanks for the input ,--understand Formula is something different that I,m learning most will not understand fully .
<br> For those promoting the Formula Class it will be an educational process to some degree.
<br>
<br> The F-18 High Performance Class sounds interesting , -
<br> If we have a unified large 20 class it may attract the largest partisipation by far for that inclusive quality within the rule .
<br> More open of a race what ya got attitude , Just come out race in one big diverse fleet and have fun , is my vision .
<br>
<br> All the best Mike
<br> Carl
<br>
<br>-
<br>
<br>
<br> -<br><br>

Ok, let me first say this MHB -- you where out of line in attacking Wouter. He is often trying but he does have a depth of knowledge and is try to help. Wouter, I thank you for your opinion.
<br>
<br>Carl, I respect your opinion also, but changing sail plans gets cost prohibative when you look at varying crew weights and formulas inside the class.
<br>
<br>Gentlemen, we need to look at working with other formula classes. We each have a niche to go after. Looking to what is happening in the F18 class with the push for HP -- basically it is self destructing. Is anyone going to move up or down in to a formula class. NOT if we start picking each others bones over trivial issues.
<br>
<br>The basic 350 crew weight minimum with correction corrects every male/female H20 team that I know of. SO that arguement atleast in this area is mute. Do we want junior sailors in what is suppose to be the premier F class? No, we need to use F16 and F18 as breeder classes. Having NAF-20 being the top F class is where we need to be. Having well trained race teams racing over powered boats is exciting to watch as much as to do. THat is our market.
<br>
<br>NAF-20 (the legal class name --iF20 is not) is a marketable venture when you address the basics and place an eye on what can happen a few years down the line. Are there better boats in the world? Yes. But, who is racing them? And why would everyone of us go spend our hard earned dollars to have one right now? What we need to focus on is getting people back on the water in an inclusive format -- (everyone that can meet the minimum requirements). Hell, its kind of like joining the ARMY (no offense intented) We take eveyone as long as they can meet the minimums OR correct to them.
<br>Will new boats come along? YES. SHould we embrace them now? NO!
<br>
<br>Look at the Mhullers. A few years ago a hot new boat came out -- the viper 830. God was it fast, light, strong, kick the crap out of everything on the water. Did it sell?? HELL NO! TOO much money getting rid of the old boats! Are the J's still around? Yep! because it is CHEAP to race and there was alot of them. SO the builder is making a smaller version called the Viper 640. THe J guys use them to train new crew!!
<br>
<br>History has a funny way of repeating itself and those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
<br>
<br>Gentlemen, 350 crew weight works. As does boat minimum of 385. Sail area needs to be capped somewhere lets look at that instead of trying to revisit the weight issues. THe question you need to ask is what SA is fast for a crew weight range of 350-400 lbs + a boat of 385?
<br>
<br>Hobie, PC, and Mystere have agreed to configure a boat in the 550sq ft area. Do we want this across the board or is this TOO MUCH SA? No different amounts allowed by class rules. But, if you want to race less than thats ok. Also, the class needs to agree that the mast and sails can be bought from any NAF20 class approved sailmaker. Let the sailmaker be the measureres of the sails.
<br>
<br>Please think of this.
<br>
<br>Respectfully
<br>Steve
<br>
<br>Oh yes MHB, apologize to wouter and I am sorry if I bit you on the other board.<br><br>

To all,
<br>
<br>>> I understood him to mean that a 400 lb team on a 295 min boat like a H20 would be at a bigger disadvantage then on a H20 with a 350 lb minimum. That is it.
<br>
<br>
<br>That is exactly what I meant. In light air there are hardly any limiting principles like righting moment and than the lightest crew with respect to sail area will win. Min. overall weight is intend to address this equality problem when sail area is fixed at one size for praticality.
<br>
<br>In this respect setting a normal minimum is very instrumental in stimulating fairness in all conditions including light air. Without it heavy crews will alsway loose out in light air.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>You may agree / disagree or ask him to clarify his point.
<br>
<br>My clearification is above.
<br>
<br>
<br>>> no.. Attacking the general argument with an example is trivial.
<br>
<br>Agree. And that applies to me too. So here guys; here I offer my hand.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>> AND…Most importantly... CREW WEIGHT is one of the things that a class can control easily.
<br>
<br>I second that.
<br>
<br>
<br>>>> Finally, What is to stop Alan and Karen Ann from adding weight to their cross bar and racing at 350… are they more or less at a competitive disadvantage as a team at 400 lbs in the proposed if20 class with a minimum at 350.
<br>
<br>
<br>Good point Mark !
<br>
<br>
<br>>>Fairness is in the eye of the beholder I guess.
<br>
<br>Ohh yeah, and not always are these confirmed by numbers. And vice versa.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

I agree with all of Steve's points above:
<br>
<br> 1. Keep it SIMPLE (or people will ignore it)
<br> 2. 350 lbs min crew weight works
<br> 3. 385 lbs min boat weight works (with periodic reductions)
<br> 4. Some SINGLE limit on SA.
<br>
<br>Just making these simple limits work and getting the class off of the ground is going to be hard enough! If we try to add special cases, exceptions, options for this, variations for that.....the whole thing devolves into a mess that is even less attractive than Portsmouth!
<br>
<br>Sail fast and have fun,
<br>Alan Thompson
<br>I20 - San Diego<br><br>

>>>The other aspect you and wout are touting that we have to swabble over dwindling numbers of sailors , -THIS IS ABSURD ,
<br>
<br>>>>is no reason to exclude them from racing any boat they choose , -
<br>
<br>
<br>The reason to haggle over these weight spans is equality and fairness of racing while keeping costs acceptable.
<br>
<br>I will put it into a question :
<br>
<br>On a nice warm day with a 5 knot wind I bring my regular crew of 400 lbs. You look at the weather and decide that the winds are light enough to bring your little nethew. How can you explain to me that this racing is still fair ? Fair as intended in the formula class.
<br>
<br>Now you could reply to my question by saying that you will just pick the smallest of those 5 spare rigs (main, mast, jib and genaker sets) that you always cary around in your modified trailor. But how can you sells this to a crew starting out in the class and that can not buy 5 complete rigs of different sizes ?
<br>
<br>The Only you can do in that situation that would be fair is to take along all your nieces and nephews untill you make minimum. you can still race with your younger familiy members and I don't have to give you a 180 lbs weight advantage. and thus practically give you the line honours and the price of the day.
<br>
<br>That was talking about your class. Now move down to do smallest class.
<br>
<br>There, there is no minimum and you can sail solo with nephew and even with you wife. And no heavy crew can complain to you that you are unfair by being so light. Why because there are no teams in that F class that are heavy enough to notice a real disadvantage. Even a adult with small kid will weight in at at least 240 lbs so the biggest weight disadvantage will be 90 lbs. Also way less than the 180 lbs in the earlier example. No solo sailors are lighter but are also at a disadvantage with respect to handling.
<br>
<br>Now look at the mid range class lowest is 310 and highest 350. Only 40 lbs difference. Now this must be the class with the closest racing !
<br>
<br>So everyboy is catered and not subjected to accusations about unfairness.
<br>
<br>And this is the strength of a three length formula framework.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

Hi wout
<br>
<br> All formula classes are developemental to some extent --
<br> This means variables in sails and overall design features as defined within limits per class definitions .
<br>
<br> Existing Formula classes use various jib and spin sizes to adjust for crew weight .
<br>
<br> This proposed 20 rule combines total weight to a sail area formula ,-{more comprehensive approach } -\
<br>--
<br>-You provide extreme examples , ignore the same effects on existing Formula classes , jump to false scenarios , -mislead , then state how wonderfull you believe 16s are .
<br> Racing sailors are smart , they can deside this for themselves , based on the excellence of design and their requirements .
<br>
<br>--Sails --All Formula class racing sailors if they change crew would need different spin and jib sizes to max. allowed in the rules .
<br>
<br> New 20 rules proposed are no different , --roller furling jibs are allowed ,--changing sail area ,--reef points on the main are allowed ,--2 spin sizes for each team are allowed ,--and in the 20 class 2 mains labeled and approved would be allowed .
<br> I would remind you that any Formula Class inc 16 could have a full main built and a flatter main built , both within the limitation of class rules and choose the one that best fit the weather forcast for that regatta weekend . -
<br>
<br>-In the 20 class sailors that modify existing boats to max allowed sail area per rules would of course keep their older smaller main , and potentially use it , along with their roller furling jib if it was in the above 20 wind strength that weekend ,--This adds an element of seamanship along with furlers and optional reef points in the main that I wish we had available during the Worrell 1000 races . -
<br>
<br>-In allowing sailors to go to any sail maker for their sails is there the potential for some to buy speed , --yes , true for any developemental class , but sail areas are all equal along with total weight ,
<br> This is not complex or difficult to comprehend .
<br>
<br> Your objections and extreme scenarios are based in fear that the 16s will not be accepted . --Again these are excellent designs that will attract numerous sailors ,
<br> What I,m politely trying to say is the extreme examples and insistance on rules for other classes you do not intend to partisipate in , but post with intent to promote 16s ,actually has the oposite effect and result , and is not constructive or helpfull to ANY formula class .
<br>
<br> Do appreciate the efforts and hard work you put in the 16 class and have stated so numerous times on the various forums as you know -
<br>
<br> All the best -
<br> Carl<br><br>