If youth sailors could choose any boat they wanted they would be racing C class catamarans.
Bit of a problem there however eh????

It's funny, my kids don't like my Mercury Sable to drive to school yet, they don't expect to see a corvette in the driveway anytime soon. Same goes for our personal cat fleet. They are perfectly happy with the two 16's on our beach. if not they can get a job and buy anything they want (after college).
Part of being a kid is to complain about things that are out of their control.

That's the point -- the kids don't and shouldn't have any say in the matter. The boats that are chosen for the use of youth sailors should be chosen based upon availability and cost factors, not on what would be most "popular" with the kids. The introduction of the 29er into some of the Junior Olympic Festivals is an example of trying to cater to what the kids want. And I presume the factory is also trying to make them financially attractive to clubs that want to start fleets for their junior sailors. If Vanguard made a catamaran, maybe we would have fleets of catamarans in the clubs for youth sailors now.

Scooby,



That is the opposite of my viewpoint of the hobie 16 scene in the UK, perhaps my club and the people I sail with skew my opinion in the same way yours does.

Rhodysail,

I think the H16 is still up there with the best of them certainly biggest single selling model according to class association figures.

2003 last 5yrs total
H16 202 574 150000
A class 100 450 1000
F18 300 2000 3000
Tornado 38 191 2000

Although someone said 8 out of 10 boats sold by hobie are rotomoulds.

Gareth

The only Hobie 16s I ever see are those sold on after events where they have been provided by the manufacturer.
I believe that they have only made a comeback in the UK since they were declared the Youth Cat. Very few were raced before that.

Dermot.

And you are still wrong !

And I don't have to give you any numbers. I gave them many times in the past and I don't have any illusions about convincing you guys. Time will tell who is right here and I'm okay with that.

The fact that the ISAF didn't even short list the H16 should tell you that the choice for H16's is far from obvious as you seem to argue. Even Hobie themselfs offered an alternative to their own H16 by the Hobie Max. Why would they do that ? If Hobie USA is so strong why didn't they campaign hard for the H16 at the ISAF trials ? I guess they gambled that it would just blow over and wouldn't affect US affairs. Well, there is talk of launching the SL16 at the San Diego youth worlds and Performance cat is rumoured to produce it.

Now you can shoot the messager, but I guess you will eventually find the writing on the wall when you walk into it.

Wouter

Lets look closer to the numbes provided :

2003 last 5yrs total
H16 202 574 150000
A class 100 450 1000
F18 300 2000 3000
Tornado 38 191 2000


is best translated into

Data from 2003

H16 produced last year = 202 produced last 5 years = 574 , total produced ever = 150000
A class produced last year 100; produced last 5 years = 450; total produced ever = 1000
F18 produced last year = 300; produced last 5 years = 2000; total produced ever = 3000
Tornado produced last year = 38; produced last 5 years = 191; total produced ever = 2000


In order to arrive at 150.000 boats produced ; Hobie had to produce between 4500 and 5000 boats a year over a 30-35 year time span .

Anybody else noticing a trend in the H16's ?

Sure; F18's are about 147000 short on produced ever (when looking at 2003 data) ; but they out sale the H16's yearly by a 100 boats and out sell H16's by no less than 2000-574 = 1626 boats over the last 5 years.

And that was data from 2003. 2004 has been a good year for the F18's with strong growth in Aus and USA so the numbers will be even more disproportional now.

It also looks like A-cats are breathing down the necks of the H16's when looking at produced over the last 5 years.

So I refer to me VW beatle example here ; the number produced over the last 40 years doesn't mean sh!te if you are not producing them at the same levels anymore anymore.

Wouter

I'm not asking for production numbers or what class the adults are sailing. We are talking about Youth Racing.
What catamaran classes are the Youth racing in TODAY?
"What other catamaran classes run Youth World Championships?
What other catamaran classes run Youth National Championships?"

Come on there must be SOME other catamaran that is running Youth regattas around the world. Is there?

You are not very well informed are you now ?



KL15.5/SL15.5, Mystere 4.3, Hobie 16's and I seem to remember Hobie waves as well.



Well that is a great point to make, Only ISAF can hold Youth World Championship so no-one else can without serious penalties to the organisers, officials and sailors. And current the H16 is the ISAF choice, WITH SPINNAKER so it is not H16 class compliant. But this is all semantics. The decision to replace the H16(spi) with another design has been made. So enjoy your last two years of the honour of being the Youth boat.



Mystere 4.3 (was/is US youth boat, surely you knew that)
KL15.5/SL15.5 (France youth boat and showing serious racing that most of us can only dream about)
Waves (But only in the USA I think)

I'm sure there are a few more classes in Australia that have youth status and youth nationals. Boats like the arrow. But I have no time to go on the internet and look it up.

Being ignorant doesn't mean you are right.

Wouter

I was relaying the comments of others.




what a stupid comment to make.

All the guy's I know want a Tornado and to go to the Olympics, they (like me 16 years ago) have no way of funding it at the moment.




Have you any idea of the cost of a competitive Oppie ? It is not a cheap boat by any means.

If they do not sail something they at least have some motivation to sail, they will go and play Footbal, or rugby. Sailing really struggles against the high profile sports in the UK. I myself had some options around 15-16 to go into a more structured Skiing, Football or Rugby profession but decided that as I was getting some sponsership I would attempt to get into the next games cycle and aim for Atlanta. We were doing OK but at a critical time (just about to sign for a Tornado from Goran) we lost our major sponser and that was (basically) that for that Olympic cycle. Then got older and real money working in IT dragged me into the rat race. If I was 14 or 15 again I would be sailing a 29er, not a H16.

Come on, get real, kids will not sail a slow, old and frankly a horrible boat (mine and a number of othjer peoples opinion only) like the H16 if there are better options.

The reason the Hobie 16 has made a small recovery in the UK is becasue the kids that want to sail cats as part of the youth program HAVE TO SAIL THE Hobie 16.

The club I sail at had 3 members of the youth cat squad sailing for the last couple of years. As soon as they left the youth squad they all sold their 16's as soon as they could. The did not keep them to continue sailing a boat they loved. The dumped them because they were sailing them becasue the had to

Wouter, nobody is WRONG. It's just a matter of what is practical.

"And the same thing may be true of the Hobie 16 -- they are the most numerous and most affordable, but are not necessarily the cat that youth sailors would choose if given a choice. "

Mary, the thing is that if you`re racing at that level ie going to a worlds, whether it be junior or senior, you want to be sailing & practicing on the best boat you can. And just to QUALIFY to go to these events you need a fairly new boat. No-one wins a Nationals on a 6 year old Hobie 16, unless all his competitors are sailing 7 year old boats. SO although a Hobie 16 can be bought cheaply because there are a gazillion of them around, doesn`t change the fact that at a COMPETITIVE level you need a new boat. New Hobie 16`s are anything but cheap when compared with other classes that far surpass them in level of specification. If I lived in the UK and had to decide whether to buy a Stealth or a Hobie 16 AT THE SAME OR SIMILAR PRICE, there would be no contest. I sail a boat with spinnaker that`s quicker than a H16 at HALF THE PRICE.

I think the issue most people have is that a new boat selected for ISAF Youth Worlds won`t give as many folks the opportunity to sail the chosen boat before the event. Sailors in smaller countries are not going to rush out & buy the new SL16 just because it`s the new youth boat.

SA sent one team to the last youth worlds, imagine they now bought one of these boats - who would they practice against ? So they will qualify on H16`s and sail the boat first time when they get there.
The last Youth Worlds in Poland, they had not sailed with a spinnaker until I took them out for a sail on the Mozzie to get them to get the feel for it, for about an hour. They only bought the spinnaker kit a few weeks later, which was only a few weeks before the event.

I have to say two things here though. Hobie is probably the most qualified company to be able to provide boats and equipment for such an event, and have proven their ability in this regard. And anyone who feels the need to constantly criticise the boat obviously hasn`t done 4 years on one sailing in ANY conditions. They are like Mack trucks, granted, but OD fleet racing them is great fun, and they handle offshore coastal conditions most people would be sh*t-scared launching their lightweight new-technology boats in, including me.

Steve

Ignorant? About Jr Sailing?
I grew up in Jr. Sailing. I went to four US Youth Sailing Championships. I also competed in the 420 World Championship. I coached Jr. sailing for over 10 years. I've also coached at every top-level clinic in the US. And yes I have also been to Europe. In fact there where a few years where I spent more time competing in Europe than I did in the US. In short I've been around the block a few times. If anyone is ignorant it is clearly you.
Oh and by the way this summer I'll be training with the team to represent the US at the Youth Worlds. What will you be doing for youth sailing this summer?

Moving on.

Now you say that the Mystere 4.3 is the US Youth boat. Nothing against the 4.3 but the US does not have official youth boats. The 4.3 was used in the US youth Multihull Championship once. the rest have been in Hobie 16s. So you are wrong there.

I don't know of any Youth regattas in Hobie Waves. The only Wave regattas I have seen have had no age requirement. Please direct me to the NOR for this Youth Wave event that you are speaking of.

I believe the KL 15.5 does have a fleet in France. Is there one anywhere else? How many kids show up? I can't find any results.

Regarding your comment that only ISAF can hold youth world championships you are again wrong. In fact any ISAF class can hold a youth worlds and the Hobie 16 does. Can you name another one?

Wouter you are like a politician. You can't simply answer the question. You would much rather skate around the issue. For that reason I am done communicating with you.

(btw: these are my personal opinions)

Lets look at those numbers again and apply a little Wouterism, Ignoring the last 40 years

H16 produced last year = 202 Average produced last 5 years = 115 , 2003 % sales rise over av +76%
A class produced last year 100; Average produced last 5 years = 90; 2003 % sales rise over av +11%
F18 produced last year = 300; Average produced last 5 years = 400; 2003 % sales rise over av -25%
Tornado produced last year = 38; Average produced last 5 years = 40; 2003 % sales rise over av 1%

Somebody wrote to me the other day and said that what ISAF does as far as the youth boat is really irrelevant, because most countries and clubs and sailing centers and fleets and Boy Scout organizations will probably keep on doing what they have been doing for years.

ISAF's decision (if they make it final in November) may promote a new trend, but it will be a very long time before it can be implemented in most parts of the world.

And for all we know, a few years down the road the trend may be toward a youth boat that is a smaller version of the A-Class Cats, with no spinnaker at all. Lasers don't have spinnakers and that class seems to do very well in numbers and popularity, with both youth and adults. The Laser 2, with spinnaker, never really caught on, despite VERY attractive fleet prices to clubs.

Having been forced to sail one at a youth national championship I know why. They are horrid.

I answered your questions just fine, don't chance the subject.

And I didn't ask for your personal resume !

And Ohh I forgot one class Hobie dragoons. Had a few European youth championships.

Wouter

If you had to decided between selling 2000 boats in 5 years with a last year decline of 25 % (but still sell 300) or selling 574 boats in the same period with a upturn of 76 % in the last year (peaking at 202 boats) what would you choose ?

So what is this all about really ?

Suddenly everybody's lost their common sense ?

Wouter

I think everyone is taking the number of boats produced incorrectly as $ other Hobie manufacturers did not put there figures on the web site.

As for the “old design”, The standard Hobie 16 won some of the races at the ISAF Youth trial in Quiberon. Yes it beat all these modern design in a windward leeward race. Just 2 years also the standard Hobie 16 won Round Texel race, the biggest catamaran race in the world. While the result was on handicap but the Hobie 16 beat many of these “modern” boats across the finish line.

The largest multihull world championships last year was again the Hobie 16.

Facts are the Hobie 16 is still the most popular multihull in the world both racing and recreationally. Now ISAF want to replace the boat with a boat that less than 10 have been produced world wide. Unless they including the SL15.5 as the SL 16 to get their numbers.

Whether you like the Hobie 16 or not the facts are there and if people took off their biased hats and looked at multihull sailing and getting youth involved it most be the cheap, available boat. That still remains at present the Hobie 16.