So Bob..

Are you REALLY saying that competition trumps years of experience sailing high performance boats!!!

Randy Smyth and Robbie Daniels were succesful coming through the cat sailing ranks and did not seem to miss all of that tactical training in college.

Fact is... it took Johnny and Charlie 12 years of training on a high performance boat to get to the top.

Lots of US All American types have tried and failed to jump into world class status in a high performance boat despite those years of competition in slow dinghys.

Moreover, It doesn't seem that the rest of the world is following the US lead of trying to compete by starting the sailors off at the age of 22 on the high performance skiffs and tornados after a rigorous 15 years in slow dinghy's.

I can't believe that this is a winning strategy.

Have I misunderstood you.

Mark

Before anybody gets any ideas that I'm writing these posts to promote F16's, read this first.

The F16's wouldn't have stood a chance at the ISAF trials. AHPC was seriously thinking about entering the trails but wasn't willing to remove the daggerboards or satisfy the additional requirements. No other F16 builder considered the trials after that. And at that time the class was at its very beginning and was arguably a "short puppy" compare to others. And we also did an "A-cat class thing" and said "stuff it!" to ISAF requirements that all but garanteed a boat that would not be much faster than the current youth boat.

It was not that designer couldn't design a better boat it was more than the requirements didn't allow much in the way of improvements. ISAF wanted a boat that could be driven into the harbour wall at full speed and survive with just a few bits of gel coat falling off. It even mentioned rubber bumbers at the stems. It also specified a target price of 8000 Euro's per boat and forced a regular "free of charge" supply of regatta boats by the builder. This just doesn't make commercial sense and I think even Hobie expressed that believe.

So the reason why it is 11.000 per boat is that SOMEBODY has to pay for these free regatta boats. That'll be the buyer of the youth boats. So I don't really understand what they benefit of these free regatta boats is. It only makes the initital cost much higher than need be. Look at the mystere 4.3 of how it must be done. And without a large initial class a builder will have trouble selling off 20 former worlds boats each year. This will of course be translated into again raising of the boat price to cover the risk.

But any way before we (I) get off track. This is not about F16's at all. We never stood a chance and never figured we could make it work; nor did we really want to make it work. F16 is totally outside of this. That unless we start comparing prices. But that is a different topic.

Wouter

Mark
Ok so we are talking about the Olympic development argument now. The argument says that the kids going to the Youth Worlds are on an Olympic path and that they should be sailing a boat that is similar to the boat they are presumably shooting for in the Olympics. Basically in the catamaran world we are taking about training for the Tornado class and only the Tornado class. In this context yes I am REALLY saying that competition trumps years of experience in high performance boats. You do need to put it in the context of this argument however. The years of experience that we are talking about is in the Youth sailing years.
In those youth sailing years the important thing is NOT that you sail a boat that is similar to the Olympic boat in your discipline. The most important thing is that you have been given a chance to race in a competitive and fair environment. Now, do you need to put years of training into the Tornado to get to the Olympics? Yes obviously you do. Does it mater what boat you sailed growing up. No it doesn’t. Does it mater that you have grown up competing at a high level in your chosen sport. Yes it absolutely does. There are loads of PHD papers related to this that often appear in Olympic Coach magazine. I put a paper that I particularly liked up on the Sailing Medallist web site a few years ago http://www.ussailing.org/olympics/SailingMedallist/03vol8/page2.htm . I think the concept of "sports intelligence" mentioned in that article is a great observation, but I'm getting off track.
Following my argument we don't need a multihull discipline in the Youth Worlds at all to produce great Tornado sailors and I support that conclusion. There are however many more arguments to support a multihull in this championship but I'm preaching to the quire on this one so I will not waste the band width.
A lot of young people seek out my advice before they start on Olympic campaigns and there is one thing, among others, that I tell all of them. I tell them that the Olympics is so far beyond any other competitive sailing arena that you should consider yourself to be starting from scratch in your sailing career. I tell them to choose a class that they think they will enjoy the most and not a class that is necessarily like the boats that the have been sailing up to that point. In the Olympic classes you need to specialize so much in your specific class and the level is so high you should again consider yourself to be starting form scratch. I made this mistake, not that I have any regrets, when I chose the 470 I thought that it was a good choice since I grew up sailing dinghies. In truth I had as much to learn about sailing a 470 as I would have had learning about a Tornado or a Star.

My main point again is that it the Olympic development equation it doesn't mater what boat you grew up sailing. What does mater is that it was competitive because exposure to highlevel competition in the early years does mater. By creating a competitive environment we are teaching the important ingredients mentioned in the above paper.

I believe Bob asked when there was ever a Wave Youth Regatta.., and the answer is every year.
At the Wave Nationals all the sailors race in one start for the Open Championship and from the overall results we break out the winners of the Women, Masters (over 55) and Youth (18 and under)

In the last couple of years there have not been than many kids racing, but there usually are several.
And we have had some good competition. Laura Young won it a couple of times and is now sailing for the Naval Academy. Harry Newkirk and his buddy, Tommy, have sailed the regatta numerous times and lately the regatta has been dominated by Zach Grant (also the World Open Champ).
So, the Wave Class has actively been trying to attract youth sailors. When Hobie supplied charter boats, it was easier to attract kids, but has been a bit more difficult without rental boats.

Just on more thing -- the boat selection made seems to be a way to progress the kids to the Tornado (or whatever Olympic multihull they may select in the future), but I think they are not looking at ALL youth. Rather they seem to be to thinking only of young adults.., not kids

I believe we need a boat for small kids to play with and have fun with. Sure, race as well.
And after they mature, go through puberty, and become young adults, they can move into more high-tech and faster boats.
I certainly cannot see a couple of 60 pounders on this new boat selected by ISAF.., nor even on a Hobie 16, for that matter.

Monohull folks have the Opti.., but we seemingly have nothing.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the Hobie Wave would be the perfect boat for kids.., it can be sailed as a Unirig by one person, or with a jib and Hooter (or spinnaker) it could be sailed by two kids.
And it could be sailed as a uni with a spin or Hooter.
It is really simple to add on the extra horsepower and add some trapeze wires.
So, you see. Lots of options.
And the boat cannot be damaged very easily -- they are Tupperware.

Rick

Mark
To go point by point

“Are you REALLY saying that competition trumps years of experience sailing high performance boats!!! “

This I have explained above

”Randy Smyth and Robbie Daniels were successful coming through the cat sailing ranks and did not seem to miss all of that tactical training in college.”

I’m not saying that you can not come through the cat sailing ranks just that you need to come from some highly competitive background.

”Fact is... it took Johnny and Charlie 12 years of training on a high performance boat to get to the top.”

Everyone needs to spend years of training in the specific Olympic class that they are competing in, Even Randy Smyth http://www.ussailing.org/olympics/SailingMedallist/vol4/page2.htm


”Lots of US All American types have tried and failed to jump into world class status in a high performance boat despite those years of competition in slow dinghies.”

It is a highly competitive arena successful people fail there all the time.
As one counter point look at Tim Wadlow and Pete Spaulding in the 49er damn close to a medal after growing up in competitive slow boats.


”Moreover, It doesn't seem that the rest of the world is following the US lead of trying to compete by starting the sailors off at the age of 22 on the high performance skiffs and tornados after a rigorous 15 years in slow dinghy's.”

The country that has been trying to “pigeon hole” their sailors into a specific Olympic position for the longest are the French. They have kids growing up as 420 crews to be 470 crews as one example. They have also had about as much money in their Olympic program as the British but for much longer. However look at their record in terms of Olympic medals. It’s not that great.

”I can't believe that this is a winning strategy. “

All I’m saying is that this Olympic path argument is a non factor, not that there is some strategy behind it.

Rhodysail,
Although it seems unlikely, maybe the announcement about the recommendation for the new youth boat was made this early to give people a chance to give input about it before the final decision is made in November.

But, how and to whom does one give such input to ISAF? There has been lots of input in this thread on this forum, but I'm sure ISAF does not see it. There must be some way to communicate with ISAF, but I don't know what it is. It doesn't do much good for us to all be just talking to each other if it doesn't get to the decisionmakers. The only way I know is to write to the Secretariat and hope it will be passed on to the relevant people.

Do you know if there is a more direct way to communicate?

The ISAF delegation at US Sailing.

I still think the biggest factor in youth classes is cost. Parents, especially non-sailing parents, are not going to rush out and pay $11K for a boat knowing how kids interests quickly change. When my Daughter started band she got a cheapie rental trumpet. After watching her practice 1-2 hours every day for 6 months I then decided it was worth the effort and expense to upgrade her equipment. She now has a $1000.00 trumpet. If she continues the path she's on and her skills continue to improve, there will be a top-of-the-line Stadivarius trumpet in her future. I think there should be an A Fleet / B Fleet setup which would make it easy to become involved and start to learn and would give a motivation to move up to the A Fleet with higher competition and better boats as their skills improve and they continue to show desire for the sport. I think the Hobie 16 with or without spin would be great choice for the beginner class. My oldest daughter who is the other sailor in the family already drools over the Mystere 4.3. In part due to her motivation I am getting a newer modern boat myself. This will allow both of us to better our skills and will make racing more enjoyable as we should be able to keep up the the rest of the fleet a little better. If she (and the other kids) continue to enjoy sailing I will get them a second boat. If they want to race I will probably get them either a Mystere 4.3 or a Taipan 4.9. Otherwise I'd probably get them a Wave. Average parents with average incomes are not going to spend big bucks unless they feel it is justified. Once they see their child has talent or desire for a sport or hobby then they will sacrifice and do what it takes to give their kids the best tools needed. This is how it works in almost every sport & hobby, at least here in the US. Whether it's skating, auto racing, bicycling, etc... they all start off in lower, cheaper classes to allow almost anyone to at least try it. Higher classes, with better equipment, classes, & training for the ones who show the talent and/or desire to step up.

That's not very specific. Sorry, but I can't figure out how to find such a thing on the US Sailing web site. Who should people e-mail to or call or mail to personally? I assume Janet Baxter would be one of them, but are there others on the ISAF delegation within US Sailing?

I've been thinking about this a little more and reading some of the comments I feel that there are a number of differing (geographical) reasons we all feel so different.

1, The French as someone said, try to bread 420 -> 470 crews etc...
2, In the UK cat sailing is VERY much the poorer brother to mono sailing. At my club(the biggest inland club in the country), the cat fleet is (probably) about 5% of the whole club. A vast number of clubs around the country do not allow cats to sail on their water. within the UK, I would guess (and it is just a guess) less than 1% of people sail cats. If we loose a youth sailor to the 29er which does feed into the 49er, they won't come back to the F18 and Tornado. There are a lot of people who have worked VERY hard to encourage our kids to sail cats, but then these kids get forced to sail H16 (well they don't because they won't sail them and move to the 29er as my comments above).
3, From what I can gather there are many more cat sailors in the USA and Aus. and so the UK situation is unique (we have to try and keep the talent, and the Hobie 16 is not helping)

Just my observations on what has been said.

In the US Sailing directory
http://www.ussailing.org/directory/
click on ISAF Delegation
http://www.ussailing.org/isaf/committee.asp
every member and e-mail address is listed
I'm guessing that these are the people to talk to.

Thank you, Bob. Now everybody in the United States who is not happy with the decision about the SL16 can write to members of the ISAF delegation.

Those of you who are in other countries will have to find out who your ISAF delegates are and write to them.

Surprising that no one has complained about the French managing to recommend a boat that is only sailed in France. That should give the home team a nice advantage.

Would you have felt better when the same committee recommended the equally French build and designed Hobie Max with the exactly same background ?

Lets face it.

Wouter

No the Hobie Max would not do it but I bet if we put our heads together we could come up with a multihull that is sailed by kids all around the world. It would be a great thing to have all the kids competing on a level playing field.

To that I can whole heartedly agree.

Wouter

Glad that you agree.
I wonder what boat would be most fair?
What are the boats to choose from?
What multihulls have kids from all over the world racing them?

Hey Zealot -

Even if you get Wouter to answer you correctly, we're still at step one - he's not the one you need to convince. Use your name, e-mail the folks that can make a difference as Mary's suggested. Until you address the currently-held idea that a spin boat is needed to feed youth into the Olympic program, you're "spinning" your wheels.

Seen a lot of discord in this thread - be nice if we could have spent more of the time on constructive suggestions rather than a building up or tearing down exercise again.

The issue of the ISAF announcement is on the agenda for the Multihull Council meeting next month in Rhode Island - does your Area Rep know what you want? Tell them! Find your Rep at http://www.ussailing.org/multihull - easy peasy.

ps - please make sure you're honestly trying to right by multihull youth. All I've seen here hasn't made me think that ISAF missed the mark.

Quote from ISAF: "In 2002, ISAF developed a criteria for builders to submit designs for the youth multihull, which led to a four-day trials in Quiberon, France in 2003, at which nine different designs from five builders were evaluated. The nine designs were eventually short listed to five, two, followed by a further process of assessment and evaluation which reduced the choice to two, including review of the production facilities, availability, distribution and price during 2004 by the Youth Multihull Evaluation working party chaired by Oliver BOVYN (FRA)."

After over 3 years work by ISAF and 5 builders who produced 9 designs, do you really think that you are going to come up with the answer on this forum ? The 2 cats you keep mentioning are unsuitable because the H 16, apart from anything else, cannot be righted by the lighter crews and the 4.3 is to small for the heavier crews.
I am sure that a lot more was taken into account when this choice was made.
Dermot.

With regard to other options. I think a smart way to HAVE done it was long the mystere 4.3 lines. HOWEVER they did not enter that design or a entlarge version so the point is mute. And yes I do think that the M4.3 is a little small for 14-18 years olds.

The other thing I want to say is that all limits considered I agree with John Williams that from what was discussed in this thread I don't feel that SAF missed the mark. It may not be perfect but considering the entered boats it may be the best choice anyway.

Wouter