There have always been some Hobie 16s in Ireland since the 1970s, but we had better cats here, the Condor in the early years and later the Dart 18 and Hurricane 5.9.( I was even Hobie Agent for a few years, but never sold one) As Simon said, thing are the same in the UK - there were better cats available. But, once the Hobie 16 was designated "Youth Cat", sales picked up, suddenly there was a Hobie 16 fleet - almost all youth sailors. It is good that there is a youth fleet, but they did not choose the cat they sail. I believe that cats will be bought for youth sailors who want to attend the Youth Worlds and other youth events - there are families with the money.
Also it seems that ISAF are moving very fast. It is unusual that they would make an announcement so far before the November meeting, when the decision will be finalised. I know that already there are meetings with the prospective builders and distributors. ISAF have been pressured for years to choose a suitable Youth Cat and now that they have, I believe that things will move very fast.
Dermot

I'd choose the boat that sold 150,000 and is on the up!
The only sales figures I can find support the H16 as the best selling boat, please prove me wrong, and its popularity is on the up for what ever reason.

Remember that F18 covers a multiple of manufacturers and models.

I like all cats, F18's, F16's A cats are all great boats, but [color:"red"] my [/color] favourite is the H16 as that is what I and all my buddies sail, I would not call any cat slow. Remember the speed difference between your "Hot" F16 and a 30 year old 150kg H16 is no faster than I can crawl.

Yes there are lots of faster boats but they ain't much faster, certainly not enough to give me an extra adrenaline rush. If you get a kick out of sailing 2mph faster than the next guy then good luck to you.

But I can't see what's so wrong with a H16 as a youth boat, its available all over the world so it has to be the most accessible multihull, and thats what counts in my book. I know we need to move on in technology. But until another company is able to support the youth program properly like Hobie does why change.

Why do some people insist on knocking other peoples boats? Wouter your support of your class is commendable but comments like

are just juvenile.

[Having been forced to sail one at a youth national championship I know why. They are horrid.]

Scooby,I have raced ,windmills,Albacores,lasers ,laser 2,Hobie 16,18,Code 40,s,Fireballs,Force 5, was happy to do so and enjoyed everyone of them.
You sound like you were a little too spoiled as a child

On a positive note...

For those Youth teams going to Busan, it's nice place.
Great rigging area, easy access to the race site.

I have just signed the supply of boats contract. I will be suppling new Hobie 16's w/spi.

I could be wrong, however, I think we will see the H16 until at least the 2007 ISAF Worlds.

I look forward to all MNA' going to the ISAF Volvo Youth Worlds.

Event web site:
ISAF Youth Worlds Busan Korea

Regards,
Steve Fields
Hobie Cat Company - Australasia

How do you come to the opinion I was spoiled ?

I sailed my first boat with my father (he owned it).

Affter a few years he decided he wanted a smaller boat so I mowed most of the lawns in my street for a year to same up the money to buy the Dart 18 from him.

Anyone who thinks the laser 2 is a good boar is sadly deluded. The class has all but died in the UK, reason, as I said, it's a horrible boat. Now the Fireball, that I like, The Albacore I can just about understand. The laser is popular because it is popular as there are so many and it is so simple. TheMightyHobie18 is also a dead boat in the UK.

'nuff said on this subject I think.

I seem to remmeber that ISAF provided these numbers in 2003. There was a thread about it on this forum.



That is why is sails of a rating that is 10%-18% slower than these modern boats.





You should have said that !

You are arguing with the guy that collected all this race data.

I think we have a case of faith based intelligence here.

*****

Texel 2003 result

Elapsed time (=beating ... across the finish line) = Peter Vink and Sven de Laaf sailing a Tornado
Handicapped : Darren Bundock and Will Howden sailing a Hobie Tiger

The first Hobie 16 (Onno Schuitema, Sacha de Boer) finished 50 minutes later as 141th on elapsed time and were handicapped to 21th still needing to improve on their result by over 20 minutes to come out as 1st.

A FAR cry from winning the Round Texel that year.

*****

Maybe Texel 2004 ?

Elapsed time (=beating ... across the finish line) = Hans Bouscholte and mr. Wieren sailing a Eagle 20 carbon + spi
Handicapped : Mitch Booth and Herbert Dercksen sailing a Hobie Tiger

The first Hobie 16 (Vincent Huntelman, Maghielse) finished 40 minutes later as 169th on elapsed time and were handicapped to 17th still needing to improve on their result by over 11 minutes to come out as 1st.

****

An interesting detail is that they (H16) were beaten by a Spitfires both in handicapped results as elapsed results.

Another interest detail is that I know both Hobie 16 crews personally as they were fellow club members of mine. I even know their dads as well, done RC work with them. All good people. I also know that Vincent Huntelman sailed a Hobie Fox and Tiger in most Dutch races. I think Onno Schuitema is still doing the Hobie 16 thing.

But anyway I think we have throughly disproven any recent Hobie 16 win at round Texel. If you statements on ISAF races is just as dependable than .....




Both the Dart 18 World and Formula 18 worlds had more boats competing. Even the A-cats had more boats at their worlds.

So how exactly do we measure the size of an event. I know hobie worlds use the round Robin system with 60 supplied boats, but still what makes an event the biggest ? The number of holliday sailors that sign in or the number of true racers that go through the effort of shipping their own boat and gear to an event.

We would do well to consider two very important things :

-1- The F18 worlds had a cut off limit at 150 boats as has had all F18 events since 2002. So there could have been more crew participating.

-2- How many sailors would be attracted to the F18 worlds when THESE used the round robin system with supplied boats ? How many H16's crews would enter their Worlds if they had to own and ship their own gear.




Is it, truly ?




The choose the SL16 partly because of the reason that all SL15.5 could be upgraded to SL16 by replacing the rig on the SL15.5's. At least that is whay I understood. Apparently their are 600 SL15.5 in the youth classes around. While I don not agree with everything ISAF has done this seems like a smart move.

And I really don't think that 130.000 H16's that are in the graveyard makes any difference what so ever.




This has nothing to do with liking or not. It has to do with facts and clearly your statements do not square with facts.





Go to the F16 forum and check up on the 2004/2005 European Hobie 16 prices. You will find a very disturbing fact. That a competitive H16 WITH SPINNAKER will cost a European between 11.844 (Absolutely bare) and 17.467 Euro's (the fully upgraded one). That isn't cheap by anybodies standard. It is also more expensive than "these modern boats"

Even the totally bare orginal H16 design (single trapeze etc) will set you back some 11.000 Euro's; but it is anybodies guess how this one will hold up against fully upgraded 12.000 to 17.000 H16's. (I also thought this was a one-design class were all boats were the same ?)

These price come of the French Hobie price list for 2004/2005. So these are facts !

Several modern 16 footers including the SL16 (11.000 Euro's) are cheaper than the H16+spi.

With regard to availability ; what does Hobie USA feel about a spi on the H16's ? Is the US youth championship with the same setup as the ISAF youth worlds ?

This is all generally available data on the web. Many would call these facts.

You are obviously very happy with the H16's and that is just great. But no amount of happy feelings will change these verifiable facts. You may choose not believe then, that is alright. But that doesn't make your right, or make me wrong.

Sorry,

Wouter

Right !

300-200 = a 100 more others decided the other way.

Lets just see how will come out on top.





Back to my VW beatle example; Most produced car in the world. The only surviving Brazilian builder report an increase in their sales last year. Should General Motors, The German, Frence and Japanese auto builders start to worry ?

And that new VW beatle is a heavily modified vehical, impossible to compare to the one that was sold several million times. Even that one has only a short surge in interest and is now slowly falling away.





And that matters from a class perspective ?

And Hobie doesn't included multiple builders ? (Hobie USA, Hobie France, Hobie Australia etc)





And this is your proof that the H16 has a bright future ?



True !



You can crawl at 10 km/hour (on average) ?

When looking at downwind legs, you must be able to crawl at 15-20 km/hour just to justify that statement. And you will have to sustain that for long periods of time as well.

Sure a H16 on a reach in 20 knots is a fast boat, but it all disappears in vapour when heaving to go upwind or downwind.

And please Gareth don't make the mistake of assuming I don't know the H16. I sail on them and raced against them for years. I know how they are and I know the differences in speed between them and the spi boats. There is a reason why on a H16 it takes between 40 and 60 minutes longer to complete the 85 km round of Texel and that is typically a strong wind - alot of reaching race.





I'm not knocking the boat ! I'm knocking the faith-based community that has seem to sprung up around it.

I see alot more potential in offers like the Mystere 4.3 for example. And I have a problem with the "150.000 boats can't be wrong" attitude. Because that number doesn't seem to wield the power it ones did. I don't particulary enjoy putting myself up to be scorned neither.

All I'm saying, with some other apparently, is that the tectonic plates of catsailing are shifting. This means we all should be prepared to experience some shake-ups.

Wouter

Wouter

I am not trying to antagonise you but the last set of published texel data indicates that the fastest boat (F18 with a spin) only went 3 knots (5 km/hr) faster than the fastest H16 (no spin). And the rating systems seem to back that up with only a 15% difference (2 knots?) in the F18 and H16 (no spinnakers).

But we are getting into a futile argument here. You have your view I have mine.

I am however genuinly interested in what people think the best selling boat is. The ISAF figures seem to indicate that the H16 is, how many F18 makes and models do you think make up that 300 boats, is one dominant?

Opinion is fine but evidence would be better. For instance the Laser advertise that the Dart 16 is the best selling cat in the UK and the class association states they sold 120 boats last year.

Gareth

If we remove cost, I would think a large number would want Tornado's - I do.

If we return cost to the equation, it's a life style question. When all my mates were driving fast cars, I had an old banger of a car that towed around a boat worth 6 times as much.

I'm now older and have a fast car and a fast boat

From what I know from members of the UK youth(ex) squad, they all want Tornado's, but have gone into F18 as this is where the best sailors are.

My views and observations.

And I'm not trying to antagonize YOU.




Actually it is 7.1 km/u = 3.9 knots. You can crawl at a why 4 knots ?

And as we all know Texel contains sizeable reaching legs and it is sailed typically with wind between 15 and 25 knots. I would argue that that is a Hobie 16's ideal race. Especially with the shallows that boarded cats need to take in consideration.




That is true but even the best Hobie 16 crews don't come closer to the winning handicapped time than about 10 minutes. That is another 18 rating points = extra 18 %.

I'm sorry to say but the spinnaker hit under all rating system is wrong. It is too little. I've shared clubs with European Champions in both the H16 and P16 classes and the guys that are the fastest H16 around Texel. They are all very good sailors but can't win on handicap from equally well sailed spi boats.




Indeed, and I have no interest in altering your believe. Just in making the stated "facts" check out with reality.




To THAT I fully agree.

Wouter

That is a Classic Wouter statement!

Let me rephrase for the opposing view...

Wouter is... obviously very (UN)happy with the H16's and that is just great. But no amount of (UN)happy feelings will change these verifiable facts. You may choose not believe them, that is alright. But that doesn't make you right, or make us wrong.

It's all spin.

Yet another post Woutered to oblivion.

Yes - but who's buying them now ?

Wouter,s post always bring a smile to my face and a chuckle,I will explain.
Wouter reminds me of a character we have on the radio called the CHAMP.The CHAMP is an boxer who took one too many shots,anyway he misinterpetes what other people say then he "lose,s it".He proceeds to take verble, and physical shots at his opponents,it is all quite commical and good fun.The Champ was like a folk lore hero.
The only thing that lead to the Champs downfall was he came and did a live show.Problem was the Champ was 130lb short skinny guy that used a synthesyser to enhance his voice.Totally ruined his image.So I hope I never see Wouter on a sailboat, because I am afraid he spends so much time on this forum typing that maybe he actually never sails.Any way keep up the good work Wouter to me your the CHAMP.

No this is an image I can live with !


Wouter

Can I bring one to a VW class event and race it ?

Wouter

Before I start I wish to make it clear this is not a personal attack on anyone or any class.

I have noticed this debate has got right off what it was originally started and that was the ISAF Youth MULTIHULL boat and the future of this boat.

What I have seen is some very poor attacks on people which are always disappointing. So I thought I would do a psychological analysis.

What I have seen is certain people always attack the strongest class and try and bring it down to their level. They use allsorts of wonderful statistics to prove their case. It is referred to as “Tall Poppy Syndrome”. When one poppy gets to tall the others attack trying to bring it down to their level. They don’t try and reach the others level they try and bring the other one down.

When you analyse the message board you see exactly that occurrence and especially in this thread. You have alleged experts that have no real sailing class attacking the stronger class. These experts bombard message boards claiming to have knowledge and a strong class when I fact they don’t. Through sheer numbers of messages they try and convince people of these facts in also in turn they start to believe their own messages. This tactic is also used by marketing companies to promote new products. Saturate the market with the name and everyone thinks it is popular and creditable.

What would be interesting would be to hear from the youth and parents of youth sailors (without the expert’s comments) how this decision of ISAF to announce a new boat after 2007 when it is untried and not readily available word wide affects them.

I suppose all of us have known this all along but somehow the knowledge that there is a clinical term for this behavior is refreshing.

1. Does anyone here not agree that the H-16 is an old Design? Even Matt Miller? Tell the truth . . . You know it's old tech no matter how many of them are active and how many of the are in DanBerger's Backyard Boat Graveyard.
2. Does anybody think they have not figured out how to design boats significantly better than they did when the 1st H-16 hull was molded?
I think had we stayed on track we could have realized That Kids don't usually buy these boats for themselves. Their parents do. Picking a more realistically priced and "In-production" Sailboat would have made more sense. (Yes I understand that you may be able to upgrade some other similar boat, Wouter. Just leave the worm can closed, they all crawl out, you know they do) [color:"red"]Translates as "Not Relevant"[/color]
Put them in a performance Spinboat that may one day prepare them for the Olympic Tornados or I-20's of the worlds. Not in some souped up version of an Old Design. It shouldn't be the most expensive thing on the planet, but affordable enough so more kids could be sailing. The Mystere 4.3 or something along that price range would have worked well.
The Blade 16 would have expensive but a perfect sort of choice, but it's just beginning production, so we can't count that one yet.
KISS principle works just great here, we're gonna end up so damned technically oriented that we're not gonna be attracting kids to the sport.
Lets support what decisions promote THAT goal and we will have given a great gift to the Sailing Youth of Tommorrow.
CARY

FYI John Lovell grew up sailing Laser II's (Charlie Ogletree also I think) Lars Guck in Sunfish John Farrar in 420s Pete Melvin in 470s. It's not about the boat. It's about the competition.