I don't want to give them any idea's but if ISAF is really smart than they get some proper designer to looks at those hulls, get the weight down AND arrange for a production facility in Indonesia, Brazil and South Africa. Like you say Steve. That SL 16 can gotten down to 120 kg at least and be produced and shipped for under 8000 euro's and make a profit as well.

More and more I'm thinking that the SL16 hulls aren't made with foam but are just 4 to 5 mm solid glass (35 kg). That would explain the 153 kg weight for a 4.81 mtr long boat. Guys, this is ONLY my suspecision NOT fact. Then a heavy rudder system and then I'm at a loss of where to put the remaining 20 kg's. The Harken blocks and Sails aren't going to be heavier.

Wouter

The problem that ISAF had to face is not competition from other multihulls, it is the 29er, this is a sexy little boat, for about 8000 euros the kids can have a really cool scaled down version of a 49er. There is virtually no kid around that would look at a 29er and a hobie 16 side by side and choose the hobie, so really the only ones racing the H16 (in the UK anyway), were the ones who didn't think they could quite make the team in the 29er.

Now we have a boat that looks more like a racing machine, but you've still got to tempt the kids (and parents) away from the 29er with its 3000 euro less price tag/

John glad the kids don't think the same way you do.

Last years 29er Australian Champion, this year is sailing a Hobie 16 with spinnker. Why? because it is faster downwind thana 29er and just as much fun upwind. I guess sailing both classes he is more qualified to comment than most.

From what I can understand there is 2 problem with the ISAF Youth system.

While anybody can design a light cheap boat, the problem is making the boat available to the whole world. As we are talking youth it means parents buying the boat. So you really need a big 2nd hand market to encourage youth sailors. From what I have read the SL 16 is an experimental boat and has less than 10 boats made. You can convert the SL 15.5 but again it cost money and there is less than 600 of these in Europe. They do not exisit anywhere else in the world.

Add to the fact that whoever has to supply the boats to the ISAF Youth Worlds at their own cost. Yes the manufacturers have to pay for their own transport and maintain the boats for the benifit of the sport. So who has the money and the backing to do this.

I agree with new2sailin2 post. After 2 years of selling Hobie's and other monohulls the reality is no parent is going to spend a lot for a youth racing cat that is two small for 2 adults. The Hobie Dragoon was a failure from the start in the US due to this issue and costs, the fact is we should focus on what is working and then help the kids move to adulthood and either continue to race the H16 or move to formula 18 or ACat racing. The ISAF really does not live in reality and seems to keep getting more and more out of touch with reality and what will work and not work, and really what is fun to youth. I know the Hobie Class organizations in Europe and else where will continue to youth race the H16 and so on no matter what the ISAF does and really is not even interested in the ISAF Youth worlds, even though they would like to continue to support the ISAF worlds with the H16. After enough experience with the ISAF and all their political garbage, who really cares what they select. If I had my way I would be using Wave's and H16's and actuall focus more on fun. Take a look at the youth monohulls they are not fast but they are fun and when your racing in one design how fast or high tech a boat is not a major factor and until we realize this we will conitnue to be on the losing end. Thank God for the H16 worlds, Hobie's youth events, etc. or very little would be happening in the youth multihull area. Ok I am done now and most likely most disagree with me, oh well.

By the way:

The Youth Hobie 16 North American Championship will be in Ventura California July 20, 21 and 22. All boats will be provided. The event is limited to the first 20 teams to register.

According to the US Sailing web site the US Youth Multihull Championship will be sailed on Hobie 16s at St Andrews Bay Yacht Club in Florida on August 25-28. This is a bring your own boat event with limited charter boats available.

The Hobie 16 Youth World Championships will be sailed in South Africa on October 24 and 25.

That's right, Bob - the 2005 US Youth Multihull Championship in Panama City will qualify a team to represent the United States at the 2006 ISAF Volvo Youth Worlds in Great Britain on Hobie 16s with spinnakers. US SAILING flys the team over, provides lodging, a coach, team apparel and gear. That's worth competing for! Think I could pass for 17?

http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/stevens/index.htm

It's really nice that a couple of our kids get to go to Europe free and sail in the ISAF Youth Worlds, but what's the point if they don't do the qualifier here with spinnakers on the Hobie 16's and/or if the winner of the qualifiers never gets a chance to practice on a Hobie 16 with spinnaker?

It's just not right to send our kids over there unprepared.

The HCA / IHCA Hobie 16 Juniors events are an entirely different issue than the ISAF Junior Worlds. We certainly don't want to promote spinnaker sailing in the Junior Hobie 16 events or in any Hobie 16 fleet for that matter. I just don't get it how some people around the World would think that spinnakers would help this class or help promote to juniors. Where would these juniors go after that? The Tiger? What are these? Wealthy kids?

For the ISAF Youth Worlds, John Dinsdale has offered (for us to offer) a spinnaker system for the qualified team to practice with. We had already done this for the past event and have given a kit for the current qualified team. They have had it since last summer. This will then be given to the next team as well.

How much time do they get to practice with the spinnaker setup before they go to the ISAF Worlds?

About a year.

Last year's team and this year's team both got the use of the spinnaker kit, free of charge from Hobie Cat. I think that is a great thing.

I guess there continues to be a disagreement between Hobie Europe and Hobie USA about the 16 with a spinnaker. I have raced in the 16 Class before, though not recently. I can't imagine anyone I know in the US Class going for the 'chute. I have seen, however, changes made within a Class that sometimes even the majority didn't like. The 16 with a spinnaker is, like it or not, the ISAF youth boat for a little while longer.

Keep in mind, Matt, that both US SAILING and ISAF view the Youth Worlds as a feeder event to the Olympics. The Tornado will continue to be the Olympic multihull for as far out as I can see. A jib and main multihull for youth does not meet the stated goal of getting kids into the Olympic programs. The funding for the US youth team comes directly out of the Olympic program.

At any rate - I think the Tullo brothers will do well this year, both at the Alter Cup and at the Worlds in Korea. Remember - these boys were accomplished dinghy sailors that thought multihulls looked like fun. They took to it well, and now they own a 16.

Interesting twist here. ISAF has selected San Diego (SDYC) for the 2007 ISAF Youth Worlds. The event will be held July 12-21, 2007. Hobie Cat's back yard and we are up for it. We have been asked to partisipate, so maybe 16's are possible through 2007 at least.

ISAF is going to designate "alternative equipment," so I would guess that would be the Hobie 16 with spinnaker, as it has been and will continue to be until they switch to the new boat. So will all the Hobie 16's in San Diego be equipped with spinnakers?

That would be the plan as they have been in the last few ISAF Worlds.

I can understand the need to have a cheap class so that the kids can sail it. BUT it needs to be something they want to sail. When I started helming a cat it was a Dart 18 (at 12 years old) and I had a Dart because it was the "weapon of choice" at the time.

I've spoken to a few of the (now Ex) youth group in the UK and they hated the Hobie 16 and only sailed it because they had to, comments along the lines :

Old, slow, cannot tune it (just rake the mast back and then it's done), The addition of the kite brightened it up a little, but they could not wait till they were too old for it and could move onto something else.

Both teams have now got new Hobie Tigers - Now I don't know if these are "daddy boats" or they have sold their souls to the bank, but it really opened my eyes speaking to them. They really did not like the H16 and just sailed it becasue they had to (and they wanted to sail a cat, not a 29er or some such). They said that other mates had been so unhappy with the 16 that they had gone to the 29er as it was "more sexy" and more "fun". So in the UK the choice of the H16 has LOST us some talant to the 1/2 boat fleet. Now maybe they will come back, maybe they won't.

The H16 is seen (IMO) as an old (obsolete?) design and is hardly sailed in the UK, but then the 16 never really was anyway. So form a UK angle the 16 was imposed upon us and some of the kids hated it.

I am not sure what the view of the 16 is in Europe (Wouter et al?)

My tuppence.

The Worlds most popular youth boats are
Optimist, 420s and Lasers
Now what were you saying about the Hobie 16 not being a modern enough design?

One more question. What other catamaran classes run Youth World Championships? What other catamaran classes run Youth National Championships?

The fact is that the kids ARE racing in the Hobie 16 and they are doing it in countries all over the World.

Oh yea.... They are also having a BLAST doing it!

When it comes to youth racing in catamarans no class can hold a candle to the Hobie 16. You may think that they should all be sailing the latest F16whatever class but the fact is they are not. You simply can't argue with success.

I think everybody can guess by now what the situation in the Netherlands is.

No Hobie 16 class racing to be really proud of; a shadow of its former self. No youths racing the H16 let alone a spinnaker. As far as I can tell they either go for the F18 or are sailing a smaller boat like the Nacra Blast in the open class.

France is KL15.5 / SL15.5 country

Germany still has some H16 racing or at least used to some 3 years ago. I don't think Italy and Sspain every really got on the H16. Some H16 sailing in the Scandinavian countries because their is only a Hobie dealorship network there.

Youngsters these days are not thrilled when they see a H16. Here in NL it was king together with the Prindle 16 in the days during the late 70's and 80's. With easily a 100 boats at bigger events. Now Prindle 16 is dead as a class and has been for several years and in some regatta's the entlisted P16's outnumber the H16's even when the H16's are regarded to be a thriving class in some corners. This should show you were to put the H16. Still have a somewhat decent turn up at Texel because alot of tour sailors grap their H16's and enter this "race". This is were all the old boats are going to recreational sailors that only sail at their clubs and enter a race once or twice a year for the fun. It is also what is keeping Prindle 16's coming to events. These recreational sailors don't really care which class has an active cirquit they just want an inexpensive boat they like.

So the bigger picture is that these older class are kept somewhat alive by recreational sailors that happen to have one of these. But this is not sustaining the classes, with each destroyed boat the class decrease in size. When a boat sustains some considerable damage it is often better to just leave it and buy another cheap second hand one. I think abouut 4 teams in NL seriously the Hobie 16 and are considered to be top sailors; this is a number far below what it used to be.

I think that the Hobie 16 (as the P16) should be respect for what it ones was and given an honourable retirement. I don't see much point in whipping grand dad up to compete with the newest young kids on the block (F18's etc). It will only prolong the agony. Even ISAF recognized this. And they are in a ivory tower in my opinion.

Wouter

I don't know about that Rhody. Numbers sold over the last 40 years don't mean much.

By that same reasoning you could say that the VW beatle is the most popular car in the world today and still a benchmark to all new modern cars coming out. We all know what to think of that statement.

Over here in my area the Splash is a more popular youth boat and is looks the part.

Go take a look here :

http://www.splash-boat.com/fr/promotion/presentation.htm#facts

3500 Euro will get you a boat to 5000 or more for a laser 1.

You guys are just so much living in the past. Read the writing on the wall. It will take a while before these new classes rack of the same numbers sold as the old classes but that doesn't say that they won't replace the older classes long before they do.

Wouter

Wouter
I'm talking about LAST year not 40 years ago.
Unless you can give me some numbers you're just spewing empty steam.

But maybe they are "popular" only in the sense that they are the most numerous, and the fact that they are so numerous does not mean they would have been the choice of the children themselves. They have become the choice of yacht clubs because of the fleet deals given to them by manufacturers and because of the desirability of having some uniformity for inter-club racing.

And the same thing may be true of the Hobie 16 -- they are the most numerous and most affordable, but are not necessarily the cat that youth sailors would choose if given a choice.