All the adult couples racing Mystere 4.3's up in Ohio would probably take issue with you about the boat being too small for teenagers.

The rumor is that Performance Catamarans is going to be building the SL16 in the United States. But IF the rumor is true, presumably it will not be confirmed until after the ISAF meeting in November and IF the SL16 is given final approval as the new youth cat.

I am told that any builder will be allowed to make the SL16, so that means Hobie Cat Company could also build it, if they desire, as well as Vectorworks Marine, which is now building the Blade F16 and has plans for other small cats in the near future.

So IF the boats become readily available in this country, and IF the price is relatively affordable,will that make a difference in how people view this ISAF (pending) decision?

Hi Mary -

I love the 4.3 (obviously), but I think Leah and I are the only adults (no cracks, please) racing together on the boat - we are about 260 lbs. All the other adults I know race it single-handed. I'll be racing single-handed at Nationals.

When Harry Newkirk and Tommy Fruitticher sailed the 4.3 together, they were heavier, of course, than the younger teams. That was three years ago or so, and they easily make minimum on the Nacra 20 now... they grow up so fast, don't they?! No more youth events for those two. You'll see Harry in the Tybee next, I'd bet.

I think price and number of boats was the only thing the 4.3/Tyka had going for it. I like it for me, and I think it makes a good pre- and early-teen two-up spinnaker boat, as well as a fun adult single-hander. Does that make it a good choice for ISAF? Guess not.

Ya know, I think the problem is that there are two completely different mindsets involved here with two completely different goals for the youth sailors.

In the United States I think the reason for getting kids sailing on catamarans is to get them hooked so they will stay with it or come back to it some day and there will be younger generations to keep beach-cat sailing going strong.

On the other hand, I think ISAF's goal is to provide an "Olympic path" for youth catamaran sailors who are interested in pursuing a career in sailing and trying for the Olympics.

For the first perspective, the Hobie 16 works just fine and will continue to work just fine for a long time.

From the ISAF perspective, a boat like the SL16 is needed for the kids who are highly motivated to work toward the Olympics and need a boat that will help them prepare for moving onto a Tornado in the future.

I think the SL16 is going to appeal to youth sailors who have grown up in the very competitive monohull world of youth racing and want another option for getting to the Olympics.

It will appeal to the parents of those kids -- and a lot of those parents are able to afford to buy a catamaran like that for their kids.

So we have two parallel paths, but with very different objectives.

We do not, and have never had, very many youth sailors racing catamarans in this country, despite a lot of effort by a lot of people over a period of decades. And of the few we have, how many are really interested in going to the Olympics?

Perhaps this new boat is important, because if it gets the yacht club kids excited about moving onto catamarans, maybe that will motivate the catamaran kids to take the whole thing more seriously. And if there is a will, there is always a way.

I agree this debate is off point. It is in larger measure off point because each of the points of view as to the standing of the Hobie 16, its suitability as a junior boat into the future, in the US or in the world or the merits of a new junior cat are coming from different parts of the world where the sailing scene is quite different. Mary has summed it up perfectly.


US Sailing and the Regional Sailing authorities and Yacht Clubs in the USA have done VIRTUALY NOTHING to develop a pipeline for candidates to be able to compete at the world level of catamaran racing. Consequently, ISAF's selection of a boat post 2007 is irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of the country. There is no program that will be upset by a change because there are no programs.

As far as I can tell. Hobie USA builds Hobie 16's and has made them available for a youth nationals, at least for the last couple of years. That in itself is a lot .... but that is the total extent of the US Program. (I guess their support may be affected after 2007 since they don’t make the new boat) Young cat sailors cannot compete in the regional junior Olympic festivals because our Yacht clubs don't want to deal! The very very few junior cat sailors race their parents at our old fart regattas.... It's NOT the same as competing against their peers. If they continue to race while in college they don't have an option of racing on a skiff or any other high performance boat much less a cat, so their skills are 4 years behind the rest of the world. The sad bottom line in 2005 is that the US Olympic pipeline has one great team who have been at it for 12 years and two beginning teams who have just started. They all pay for their own coaching. The fact of the matter is that it took 12 years of training beyond college to get to a medal. The French and Brits appear to have a huge pipeline of good sailors racing cats at all levels due to their working pipelines… sooner or later they will dominate the top rungs of the sport.
Bob’s comments concerning competion, Olympics, and the pipeline are worth a separate thread.


For the time being (read 5 years), the US program will be ad hoc on whatever boat is available. It will be supported by individual parents who probably put their kids on Hobie 16's with out chutes because that is the only small cat that is sailed in the USA. (The US Class and Hobie USA have no interest in using a chute) They will race in our standard weekend cat regatta circuit. (The level of competition is uneven across the country so that will be one more hurdle to overcome) Once they get big enough they will probably sail an F18. They will have a tough time landing a spot in a high profile sailing program with a resume based on cat sailing success They will have to switch to a displacement dinghy in college to get any coaching at all and then they will hope that they can forget all of that and then get up to speed for a campaign after that (If they can afford the coaching).. US Sailing probably believes that they can catch lighting in a bottle again with this non program For the past 12 years the US had three legit teams competing on the world stage… two teams had college experience and no cat experience as juniors, the other team were cat sailors without college coaching. Based on this, they believe that sailing is sailing and you can develop a world class performance boat sailor through this pipeline…

This non program will not be affected one bit by what happens in europe and the rest of the world and the results will likely be pretty lousy as well. Why would ISAF base ANY decision on what the impact of a boat choice would be in the USA... There is no program to upset. (The skiff pipeline is not much better. They have tried for years to get a 29ner program going in Annapolis and it’s gone absolutely nowhere)

The only solution will be for cat sailors to band together and join yacht clubs with a track record of supporting junior sailing and then put up the bucks for boats,coaching, energy to run a program, and passion to keep it going through the tough times.

The questions should not be directed at individual parents… It has to be directed at the national sailing authorities and the clubs that make junior racing happen, and ourselves and willingness to build a junior program. The parents and kids will have to follow that lead. If we are leaderless… then oh well!

What is the pipeline for other countries? Once you know this information… then have at it about where the Hobie 16 or Wave or the new boat fits into the pipeline of getting juniors up to tornado’s at the international level.

Mark Schneider

You want a program? I'll give you a program.
Take your kids that want to go sailboat racing and get them a Hobie 16.
You can get them a new one for about $7,000 USD or a good used boat for about 3,000.
For many of you this just means cleaning up that 16 in the back yard that has been sitting there since you got an F18.
Next step load up the trailer and bring your kids to a regatta. We have them all over the country (all over the world really) and the competition is top notch.
If you are in Hobie division 11 or 16 (and maybe others) there are already large groups of kids at the regattas so that your kids don't have to hang out with the old folks.
This is a TURN KEY OPERATION. You can start tomorrow. Why reinvent the wheel just so your kids can sail mini Tornados?
We have a Youth National Championship in Ventura this year and guess what, you don't even need to buy a boat. There's a US Sailing championship for Youth Multihull sailors that your kid can bring his or her Hobie 16 to. If your kid is super competitive and looking to compete on the world level there is even a world championship he or she can go to. It's all organized people all you have to do is show up with your kids. Plenty of people already are. Here's the best part...You can bring your own boat and race too.
Of course if the Hobie 16 is too boring you can get your kid a Laser or a club 420 because the 29er class never made it in the US.

Yep!
That is the USA program!

Sound like in Britan, the cats at least fight for the attention of kids with the 29 ner... I may be wrong, here... It sounds like they have several yacht clubs that have junior sailors racing both of these boats and parents can see coaching, facilities, organization, energy, and support all the way through the program.

For a non cat sailing parent to support a kid with coaching, water access, boat, equipment and transportation they must see a ladder that their kid could climb. IMO, Rhodysails accurate description of the USA catamaran program just won't cut it for them ... I doubt that they will see a program of trailering to weekend hobie regattas as the present state of the art and worth supporting their kid in. That is... IF they or their kids know that such a thing exists.

What's the state of the art in other countries? ... Who pays for it? Who runs it for the parents? Would other countries view the US program favorably? Does anyone else have a similar ad hoc program?

For US Sailors... Is the current US program the best we can expect? If the rest of the world tack right... Will we cover or continue off to the left?

IMO, if we sort out the commitment to a program and its goals ... the boat choice will be obvious.

Mark

Some more information on the SL16
http://www.sirena-voile.com/fr/bateaux_neufs/sl/sl.html

Longueur : 4.80 m Largeur : 2.32 m

Poids : 145.0 kg Nb Places : 3

Surface de G.V : 13.75 m² Surface de foc : 3.75 m²

Surface de spi : 17.00 m² Hauteur de mat : NC

Commentaire :
Bateau préselectionné au concours ISAF.
Le SL 16 sera-t-il le successuer du Hobie Cat 16 ? Réponse en 2005...

Prix T.T.C : 10,500.00 €

Construction : Sandwich polyester

Architecte : Yves LODAY

Couleur : Blanc


Sirena are also agents for Nacra, so that seems to be the connection with Performance.
They give Euro prices for Nacra eg Nacra A2 - 33,000.00 Euro - I'll have 2

• Nacra 450 • 450.00 m 8990.00 € TTC
• Nacra Blast • 4.80 m 9500.00 € TTC
• Nacra 500 • 5.07 m 10690.00 € TTC
• Nacra 570 • 5.67 m 11960.00 € TTC
• Nacra F17 • 5.25 m 12300.00 € TTC
• Nacra 580 • 5.79 m 13390.00 € TTC
• Nacra F18 • 5.52 m 13995.00 € TTC
• Nacra F20 • 6.10 m 17260.00 € TTC
• Nacra A2 • 5.49 m 33000.00 € TTC

Dermot

Hi I have read most of this thread with interest and as the person who headed up the RYA "young sailors in cats program" in the UK starting from zero boats and zero sailors 5 yrs ago we have learnt from making our own share of mistakes. From my view, junior and youth sailing in cats or dinghies is a transition thing, the sailors will move on, some will make potential olympic sailors some will be great event sailors others enjoy their sailing at a class level. During that time they will move around class and depending on their age, commiments, finance and location. In our program we left the learn to sail part alone and searched for young sailors at junior or youth race level who were looking or needed change. It has not been easy and no sooner do we get them in at the bottom than they move out at the top due to age and ability but that is our role.
I feel Mary is right, each region and country is individual in terms of where it is now and where it wants to be and how to get there. What ever cat is finally selected by ISAF I believe that is less than half the story to success. ISAF ,if they want the youth cat racing program to be successful and see more young sailors in cats and at the ISAF youth worlds they need to invest in helping MNA's to establish "young sailors in cats programs". We were lucky, we had some funding (not as much as some think) to get the program going and it is still not easy, but to expect MNA's who often have little experince with junior and youth sailors racing cats, to suddenly start sending teams to the isaf youth worlds is questionable, especially if the boat is less avalible. It took 5 yrs for us to develop the structure and have a small but regular flow of young cat sailors coming through. Dispite what some have said in this forum those sailors that have come out the top of the UK program have moved into F18 because they see it as the next challenge and some will go on to Tornado development squad I am sure. I hope that ISAF recognise the need and importance of this support and encouragement for MNA,s it will be a hard road without some help on the way which some may not choose to take without some help.
Reading through some of the comments made you might be suprised just how light a couple of young sailors can be to sail a H16 with gennaker in 20kts and right a H16 in no wind 100kg max all up.
Brian

Mark
Well what can I say.
Thanks to all of the volunteer class members the fact is the Hobie class has a program and we are improving it all the time. In short we are on the job and we have been for a few years now. There aren’t many catamaran organizations in the US that can even say that.
It sounds like you have big plans to start something up yourself. I look forward to it. Let me know if you need help.
Bob

Brian
congradulations on the job you have done with the U.K. youth cat squad.It must be rewarding to see the great results.You might remember I have talked to you before about starting up a similar program here in Canada.You are right the MNA,s need some direction and assistance from ISAF. Here in North America this youth cat sailing is only going to succeed if you have organizations like Hobie Cat and thier volunters to get it done(like they are doing).When I talked to Sailing Canada about setting up a youth cat sailing squad,they thought it was a great idea and said let us know about it when it is up and running.In other words good luck and if it works we will take over.

The other point I agree on is it is not about the boat.You need a good foundation of young cat sailors first.I like the progression model you are using in the U.K.Dragoon,Hobie 16,Tiger,Tornado.Rhodysail has it right,competition builds the skills.Colby himself said he never sailed anything bigger then the hobie 16 before he went over to Europe, and was successfull in the formula 18,s with very little training on one.He credited the 16 as giving him the skills he needed.Any way enough said from a one fingered typer from Canada,who has too much time on his hand (from the N.H.L. season being cancelled).Just one last thing it is refreshing to see posts from respected sailors like Merrick and Phipps.It would be nice to get some of the other rock stars (Colby,Booth,Bunducks,Myers....)on here once and a while to add there views tips & advice

Brian,

Its good to see you posting on this Forum.

If anyone wants to see how succesful his "young sailors in cats"program is look at this earlier post

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...amp;Main=32472&Search=true#Post32558



All the best

Gareth

Apparently lots of good Hobie youth programs in Europe
This off the European web site








Youth Hobie Sailing is growing!



At the European Hobie Class Associations' annual general meeting (Lisbon, 28-30 January) all 17 European Hobie countries had a chance to listen and interact in the Workshop Youth sailing by Brian Phipps GBR. Brian is already 5 years coach/trainer of the youth squad in GBR.
Besides that already many countries started the last 2 to 5 years a youth program. Now the Dutch (Youth Cat Sailing Program) Norwegian and the Danish have kicked off!

Italy, Great Britain, Germany are already very actively training their teams.
Portugal has teams, they join in at regattas.
Belgium youth teams are training at the Royal Belgium Sailing Club and its' neighbor sailing clubs.

For the Hobie Youth Challenge Program 2005 click here: Hobie Youth Challenge>

Friday February 25th, a youth questionaire will be on line!

Contact persons

German Hobie Youth Sailing
Harry Schlinker

Andy Martens
harry.schlinker@t-online.de

andy.martens@web.de

Danish Hobie Youth Sailing:
Jan Jensen
jan@installationtech.dk

Belgium Hobie Youth Sailing
Patrick Demesmaker
info@rbsc.be

Dutch Cat Sailing Program:
Gunnar Larssen
info@watersportscheveningen.nl

British Hobie Class Associaton
Chris Mansfield
ChrisM@Refix.co.uk

Italian Hobie Youth Sailing
Alberto Sonino
alberto.sonino@infinito.it

Swedish Hobie Youth Sailing
Magnus Nordstrom
hobiesweden@yahoo.se

Portugese Hobie Youth Sailing
Marco Wallenstein
mwallenstein@sapo.pt

Norwegian Hobie Youth Sailing
Brian Hunt
brianhunt@c2i.net

All other countries
Ute Vrijburg
ute.vrijburg@haveahobieday.com

I don't think any of those people will thank you for putting their e-mail address's on a public forum. The web crawlers will pick these up and bombard them with spam.

I would suggest you change them to be non-machine readable (so change fred@abc.com to gred (at) abc (dot) com

Or ask rich to change them for you if it is too late.

I'm curious what would have happened if the Hobie Max had been the boat selected as the new ISAF youth boat. Would Hobie Cat U.S. have started building the Max? Would the Hobie Class Association have embraced this new youth boat and started phasing it into the Hobie youth sailing programs? Or would the Class Association have rejected the idea and continued with using Hobie 16's and to heck with ISAF and the Hobie Cat Company.

In fact, did the Hobie Class Association have any input when the factory (I assume Hobie Cat Europe)submitted the Max as a youth boat in the first place?

It looks like the Hobie Cat factory was trying to cover both bases, depending on which way ISAF went in their decision -- Hobie 16 or higher-tech boat.

Were the class and the factory on the same page and in agreement about what would happen regardless of the choice?

Everybody has known for at least a year and a half that Hobie Cat Company had submitted a boat that is very similar to all the other boats submitted (aside from the Hobie 16). And I do not recall seeing any big protests from the Hobie Class against the Hobie Max being submitted.

So I guess what I am asking is, would the reaction of the Hobie community be different if the Hobie Max had been selected instead of the SL16?

My opinion?

Hobie Cat USA had little or no input on what Hobie Cat France submitted. I don't recall any input being given. I don't know if the IHCA had any real input either. I think that this "youth boat" direction that ISAF is going towards is too technical for the US market (at least) and likely is more elite and excludes more sailors than it should. We are trying to generate interest in sailing (cat sailing) here. To do that, we have been trying to make cat sailing more accessible to more people. ISAF, by making the "youth" boat so technical, I think will actually turn people off.

An example of this (negative) impact of the technical progression can be found in the short history of sailboarding. When sailboarding was simple and fun, there was TONS of interest. When it got technical and performance oriented it took on the appearance of a difficult-to-learn sport and discouraged entry-level people. Sailboarding is virtually a dead sport to the masses now.

I personally think that if the MAX had gotten the nod, we would be in the same situation. Too expensive and too technical for the youth sailors we have now. Maybe that could change over time, but we would have to step back a bit and create, yet another, level... simpler youth boat to feed into the MAX. I guess our problem here is that we just don't have that progression... yet.

This is, of course, assuming that what ISAF does here has ANY bearing on anything the rest of us should do to promote youth sailing in general. For example... what impact does the Tornado Olympic class have on cat sailing? By this I mean what does it do in a positive or negative way to promote cat sailing or sailing for that matter? Very little. There is very little trickle down to the actual masses. They may not even know it exists. So, I think what ever ISAF chooses here for a youth boat will have little to do with actually promoting (or hurting) our sport.

Based on what I have been told, this new youth boat is not aimed at entry-level sailors. It is for teens ages 14-18 who already have a background in sailboat racing, whether on catamarans or monohulls.

And I don't think "high-tech" would scare away any teenagers. They know how to program every electronic gadget made, so I don't think a few more strings to pull on a boat is going to faze them.

And, who knows, maybe having the ISAF "stamp of approval," both for a multihull being in the ISAF Youth Worlds and for a specific multihull, will result in yacht clubs starting catamaran fleets in their youth programs. That would be a GOOD thing and give kids an option instead of the 420 or the Laser.

But, it would take a lot of commitment (and financial sacrifice) from the U.S. builder of the boats to get that going with the yacht clubs.

I don't see why a program involving SL16's at the yacht clubs would be incompatible with what the Hobie Class is already doing with the Hobie 16's -- at least for now. Somewhere down the road the two paths might start to converge.

All just speculation, but we all need to keep an open mind about this and consider the possibilities for the future of multihull youth sailing. It certainly should not be partisan in terms of what boat is used. The whole multihull community should work together on this, regardless of what boat and what framework works best.

Something to consider is that a number of colleges now offer sports scholarships for sailing. I don't know how it works, but it seems that the kids who get the scholarships are drawn from high school racing teams and maybe also from yacht club racing teams that compete on an organized basis. If that is the case, it is another reason to get the catamaran youth sailors into the "system."

Does anybody have more information about this? Rhodysail? I just heard about this the other day.

College sailing teams do not offer scholarships. It’s against the rules.

Isn't there still an exception for U.S. Olympic Tuition Assistance Grants?

If I remember correctly there used to be an exception but I believe that the USOC tuition assistance program has been discontinued for years now. I'm not 100% on that but I think I remember looking into it in the late 90's.
I think Canada does have one however.