Hi:



I think it is a little unfair to claim that NAHCA is the governing body of all multihull racing when in fact it is the North American Hobie Cat Association and is s'posedly the Hobie cat sailors' class association. Therefore it is reasonable for the organization to act in the interests of the Hobie classes. That's fine. Where I have trouble is when a national group tells local fleets who they can invite to regattas. I guess there was precedent in the class association years ago for doing this, but the cat's been out of the bag for a long time now and open class and other classes have been attending Hobie fleet organized regattas for a long time in our neck of the woods. A return to the days of old would be economically hard on the fleets in the mid-Atlantic area and a disservice to mid-Atlantic constituents. And here in the mid-Atlantic area, all classes, Hobie and non-Hobie have pulled together for the good of cat sailing. Why do otherwise?



With respect to ressurection of NAMSA, what is the purpose of forming another national organization? We already have one in US Sailing. They do a terrific job on handicap ratings and they're tied into the sailing mainstream. I don't wish to be in a separate organization that is outside of mainstream sailing so that we never get accepted into the mainstream. The only thing that an umbrella organization might do, in my mind, is to help with regional scheduling. Hobie Division 11 does a great job of that here. We, CRAC, are members of Division 11 and participate in developing the regional schedule. It works fine for the mid-Atlantic area. While you might argue that Division 11 is NAHCA, well who cares? It works great here. Would an additional organization, such as a regional NAMSA group, administer scheduling of regattas so that conflicts wouldn't exist within a reasonable travel area? Why couldn't the USSA areas organize this? I believe that Area C covers the same region as Division 11. Is that true in other parts of the country?



On the other hand, as far as our region is concerned, why fix what ain't broke? As I said before, we work happily with our friends in Division 11 to organize a yearly schedule of regattas that benefits the most sailors. And we all bring something to the party. Why reinvent it?

OK "majsteve", let me see if I have this correct. You weigh in with your comments at the beginning dialogue about an INCLUSIVE cat group (NAMSA) by tellling all the Hobie sailors who may support NAHCA that they are brainwashed, are "stupid morons", discriminatory, exclusionary, possibly racist, and are doing something immoral. Oh, I forgot, these "Hobie people" are also "narrow minded" and out of touch with reality. I think you inferred that their expressions on the bulletin board qualify as "dribble" as well--I guess you mean that what they have to say is not worthy. Did I get that right? And aren't you also the mover and shaker of the INCLUSIVE NA F20 group in its formative stages; a group that is supposed to bring together 20' cat sailors?



Your diplomatic style is certainly unique when it comes to helping an INCLUSIVE group get off the ground. Starting off by bashing one major part of the community that we are trying to unite is certainly a different way to go about it--but then I may not understand because I own a Hobie 20 (like you) and belong to a Hobie fleet, so maybe I'm too brainwashed and racist to understand your unique approach to generating INCLUSIVENESS.



You should be ashamed, but not for sailing a Hobie. You should be ashamed for recording in writing such an immature outburst--on par with the best a pre-teen can produce. I would suggest that you take a little time in the future to get yourself under control before you post; walk around the block, kick your Hobie, whatever, before you "enshrine" your immaturity in print. Who knows, perhaps then your intelligence will shine through your posts, not your lack of self control. Unless you truly believe what you wrote, in which case, I don't even know where to begin to address such broad-brushed stereotyping--on par with the best racists. (See the ax cuts both ways.)

Hi Sam -

We missed you at the Div 9 meeting!

Fleet 32 welcomes all catamaran sailors - regardless of what boat you sail. We also welcome open classes at all our regattas.

We even host a distance race over Labor Day weekend - open to all catamarans.

Hope that helps-

Tracie

David and Kip -- Directly I agree my "outburst" was harsh. It is that way due to all the post I recieved over this "one design" issue. I sail a Hobie yet can sailany boat that I care to. It is this love of sailing -- cat sailing that bonds us all. Yet for the hobie-ized (I include both of you in this) they can not see through the simple fact that if every boat could sail together then they could be scored seperately. Yet nationally, NAHCA has stated that "non hobies" should not be allowed to sail in anything except local regattas. This is wrong! and it is not NACHA's position to do this it is directly Hobie cat USA -- directly Jeff Alter! Yet, all of you just nod your heads and agree like the man/assoc. is a god and can dictate from high how we hobie sailors should run our lives!



This I take offense to, just as you take offense to being called a moron. I do not like the fact that I pay my dues and then get dictated to about how to enjoy my sailing experiences. Yet you guys buy the "protect one design" arguement -- it is so transparent. What he is saying is make people buy my boats so I can get a profit check!!!



NAMSA, NAF20, all formula classes are unaligned --- pure sailing organizations. They do not make a profit, no one involved makes a profit from the class decisions. Can anyone at NAHCA or PC say that??? NOPE, don't even lie to me about it I have read the bylaws, looked at who is on the boards and what they own. Have you guys??? No!



Am I trying to figure out an inclusive organization? Yes. Are you guys? No. I have tried to be fair in every manner that every organization that I am working with. Fair to even the detriment of my objects. If you'd like to talk about that we can. If you want to take a few pops at me good, go ahead. I can take it, call me names-- they don't phase me. If I have made you mad -- good! Look at your arguement and then defend it with your own words and ideas. look past the mantra for the day and think.



Some points to ponder.



Why would other designs hurt a Hobie regatta?

Why would more sailors on the water hurt a fleet?

How can other boats running on a course hurt one design classes?

Why do manufacturers keep dividing a small market?

Who profits from catsailors fighting?

Why can monohull sailors sail multiple boats on a course and cat sailors can't?

Why do monohull yacht clubs look unfavorably at catsailors?

Are you active in building catsailing? Independent of maker?

Have you ever said "Your not welcome to sail" to a fellow catsailor?

Is there a catsailor of a different make, sailing in your area? DO you know them? Are they a member of your fleet?



Answer those questions and ask yourself if you can hold your head up.



As for me I am ashamed of NACHA's stance. I am selling my H20 because of it. I am trying to get a inclusive group together. I work with youth sailing teaching kids to sail.



What are you doing to promote catsailing??



Steve

if a builder wants to promote its product by having a events and races then so be it. if that builder puts time money and efort into it, than so be it. if they do not want you to come because you do not have one of their boats, tuff s***.

hobie does not run my life or change what or where i sail. i just sail.

that is what being part of a class is about, and your attitude is part of why the f20 will not get off the ground.

grow up.

i wanted to add that for a smart guy, you sure do say some stupid things

basket.case --- good name.



Ok let me look at this. NAHCA is not owned by HOBIE Cat. It is suppose to be run by, supported by, and for Hobie sailors. (Or so the bylaws read -- do you have a copy? If not I can post them to you.)



Second -- I own one of "thier" boats. IE I paid for it. Its my boat and my association. Where do they get off on "suggesting" that I treat other catsailors as outcasts.



As for promoting the class, sport. When did you see the last check from Hobie to NAHCA. I can tell you -- 1972.



You may not like my "attitude" -- its because I speak the facts.

That is grown up! When did you come around and offer your constructive two cents worth?



Also, if you want to be a part -- your still welcome. I guess thats the difference between an open organization and NAHCA's suggestion --- your still welcome whether we agree or not.



Next time you see a non hobie catsailor -- say "Hi" you might find a friend. Or would that hurt Jeff's feelings?



Steve

I race a hobie because I want to, if i wanted to race another cat I could, all over the north-east, at almost all hobie regatta's. would I expect to go to nacra or mystere ect.'s national championship on my hobie? No, why would you have a one design portsmouth race?

As for brainwashing I have never seen anyone belittle another cat sailor for whatever they chose to sail, I guess up here where the season's short we just don't have time for that crap, we all just like to sail.

by the way I don't race my H16 because it's the best boat, I know it's not the fastest bigest strongest..... but it's the most fun for me, racing boat for boat head to head, one design. You wanna race portsmouth, go ahead most, hobie fleets will acomodate you across the country but don't take my fun away just because it's not your fun.

cheech

fleet 204 syracuse

H16



ps just because ford is the number 1 truck dealer does that mean they should start sell chevy's too? you know, to make it fair.

Cheech -- Thanks for the post. Your fleet is doing it right -- all are welcome and all can race. Yuo guys run your hobie scoring and then score the open boats. I never said that everyone had to start on the same line at the same time.



I guess in part we are spliting hairs. Are some fleets out there being inclusive? Yes. and thats great. Are there fleets out there using this "suggestion" to run others off -- YES!



What upsets me the most is there are alot of hobie sailors with this "racist" streak against anyother boat and they'll use this "standardization suggestion" to "punish" other sailors. It is for this reason that NAMSA should step in.



If fleets came to the table with multiple CLASS affiliations then you could run more regattas with more supprt and money (dues). The only group really not liking this is NAHCA. WHY?

If NAHCA is an "not a hobie corporate alligned" organization. IE not owned by hobie cat usa -- where does it hurt NAHCA's interest? NAHCA was put in place to encourage sailing, to make it a family affair, to open a venue where people can have fun. (taken directly from early hobie advertising) -- the end of the phrase here is "A hobie way of life". Alot of people have contorted this over the years.



This is the right time for all catsailors to bond together, bring what they can to the table and grow the sport. Not the agendas of a manufacturer. Chevys and Fords can drive on the roads together why is catsailing different?



Steve

Basket case -- don't we all say some stupid things?



Steve

Majsteve said. As for promoting the class, sport. When did you see the last check from Hobie to NAHCA. I can tell you -- 1972.



FYI



Today, Hobie Co. writes a check for each issues of the NAHCA News letter. Something that I think is good, and important to the class.



I'd rather be sailing.

Bob O

Fleet 204 Syracuse NY

Fleet 295 Rochester NY

NAHCA Member 2066

US Sailing Member 241225G

NAF-18 Member TBD

NAMSA ???

Tiger 852

H16 104506

Thank you for the correction. I missed that one in the annual report.



Steve

I have to add that Hobie USA Co. supports a lot of regattas through product give-a-ways, rental boats, etc. (like the Wave nationals at Rick’s place) and in regards to the H16 worlds supplies 60 new boats (along with other support that they do not have to supply), and Hobie USA is planning to supply 60 boats to the 2004 H16 Worlds, if they come to the USA or Mexico (most likely to take place in Mexico, Yucatan Peninsula). For instance with the Hobie 16 Trapseat Worlds they are giving much to the event. And the NAHCA is very supportive of the Trapseat worlds, and in many other instances. I am a member (along with my family members) of NAHCA (IHCA) and USSA because they support sailing and work very hard to make events and especially youth events happen. They are not perfect but are doing their best. Also, if you do not want to be part of NAHCA why not join USSA Multihull Council organization instead of creating a new one. USSA MHC council is there for you and ready to support you anyway they can. Art Stevens is a hard working chairman and will back you any way he can. Art is bringing the “Fast and Fun” youth program to our area this summer and supports us and anyone for that matter any way he can. Cheers and have a very marry holiday season!

Steve:

Try reading what I have written before you reply. Here's a quote from my first post "I think it would be wise to add other classes as an X class and they can score themselves (taking the burden off the volunteers). If you want to race one design, then buy a Hobie. This is the reason many people buy Hobies (including myself)." Now, go back and read it again to make sure you understand what I am saying.................OK, now does it say there that I support Hobie only regattas??...NO Does it say that I shun other cat sailors??.........NO Does it say somewhere that I am rude to other cat sailors and somehow I tell them they are less of a sailor because they don't sail Hobies??.....NO Does it suggest that Hobies are the fastest boats??......NO

I, like Cheech, choose to sail and race a Hobie because it is a one design. As I mentioned before, I don't like handicapped racing (doesn't mean I don't want to see it at Hobie races). I don't know where your anger comes from, but it is clearly clouding your reading comprehension. You are reading things into what people are saying and turning it around. NAHCA is doing the right thing. If Fleets want to add an X class........by all means, do so.......I just ask that the X class provide someone to help with the scoring. Good Grief, is that asking too much??? Steve, please slow down on the reading and try and read things once again to make sure you are comprehending them correctly.

Kip

Kip, Don't insult my intelligence. I have read your posts and did not attack you personally in those areas. my comments were perhaps too broad stroke. Directly, I do not condone NAHCA's stance or "suggestion". If it is not your stance then relax and look at from the outside.



I have always supported someones right to choose. This is one of the reasons I support a Formula concept. If you choose to race a H16 one design then fine -- go for it. It is right for NAHCA to say that you can't race against other 16 foot designs? No its wrong. When you look at the infrastructure in this country -- you can see that in a large portion of the midwest you can not race unless you race at a "Hobie" regatta. In south Florida, alot of the "Hobie Fleets" don't even have any hobies in them. Yet on the books they are still "Hobie" fleets.



You are the only person responsible for your actions. NAMSA is proposed to be a voice for catamaran sailors, not one design classes. Is Art doing a great job, yes he is. But, he needs help even inside USSAILING! If NAMSA was an umbrella organization then USSA MHC would have some teeth due to the solidarity of catsailors. Then Art and MHC would have some pull inside USSA. Most of USSA thinks cats are something thats "unsavory". This is a poor opinion of us all. Part of this is due to the contuning fighting between HOBIE and PC corporate. Hobie brings NAHCA into this by trying to enforce this "one design at risk" argument.



Hobie and NAHCA have done alot of good. I'm not going to say they haven't but, when something or someone says to do something that is not right -- it is not our role to just follow blindly.



I have never understood why a company feels it can control its market the way Hobie uses NAHCA.



As for supplying boats for nationals, international and regional events. That is a clearly defined marketing program that is in place to sell boats. And they sell everyone of them after the regatta. Simple supply and demand. Build inventory -- display it and sell it at a perceived value. Thats business 101.



I don't hate Hobie -- I think they build a great production product. I feel my H20 is a better built boat than the 6.0NA and I like the racing of it. Is it the fastest? NO. Is it the best design? NO. But, in all I have liked every Hobie 20 sailor that I have ever met. Could I say the same thing if I had sailed an I20? I honestly couldn't tell you due to the "I'd rather sail the box my hobie came in than a nacra" mentality that is previlant in many fleets.



What we as sailors need to do is work inside NAHCA to show them the error of this "suggestion" and then join NAMSA to help promote catsailing to the rest of the world. Niether, NAHCA or USSA MHC says it is thier job to do so. If it is not thier job than it is ours (catsailors) to do so -- conjointly.



Steve

Let's clarify a bit...



Majsteve says:



>>You may not like my "attitude" -- its because I speak the facts.<<



One of the problems here is... many of the "facts" are not quite right. I'm not sure if they are being twisted for effect or if he is just plain un-informed.



1) Jeff Alter does not work for Hobie Cat USA or Hobie Cat France, Brazil, Australia or any Hobie Cat manufacturer. He is a contributor to the class. Jeff donates TONS of his personal time and effort to support Hobie Cat sailing and gets no "pay check" for it. He is a kind and thinking man who loves the sport and the class that his father created. He has a clear understanding of what made Hobie Class racing great to start with and these concepts are still valid today.



2) Hobie Cat USA does tons to support Hobie Cat racing and NAHCA. A few contributions I can think of at the moment are:



Hobie Cat gives Cash support to NAHCA (a large percentage of the NAHCA annual budget). Also, don't forget that the class association used to be 100% Hobie Cat factory. The entire class association staff were paid Hobie Cat employees... There have been hundreds of major events put on by the factory over the years... So where does this notion come from?



>>"As for promoting the class, sport. When did you see the last check from Hobie to NAHCA. I can tell you -- 1972."<<



I would not doubt that the "class support" from Hobie Cat is in the Millions of dollars over these years... last check to NAHCA 1972?... where did that come from? It was The Hobie Class Association back then anyway not NAHCA.



Hobie Cat USA supplies giveaways to every Hobie Cat regatta that asks. Hobie Cat USA pays for and I do the layout and digital work for the bi-monthly NAHCA News cover. This is time consuming and certainly not cheap. We run a contest in every issue with more giveaways. All of this to stimulate interest in the class.



I can't even estimate the amount of time and effort staff put towards support issues. We also personally attend many events. Many of the upper management were Hobie Cat enthusiasts and racers way before working for the company. We have personal histories, interests and caring for the Hobie Class Association that came before employment with the company. It really is not just business interests that drive us to support Hobie Class racing. Does any other Company offer this kind of support to any other catamaran class or association? Any class or association?



It is not easy to sell regatta boat product and is certainly not the most profitable (if there is any) way to do business. It is a costly and time-consuming ordeal that takes a huge toll on the factory personnel. We have been stuck with un-sellable used product many times. It is certainly not, as stated by majsteve:



>> “As for supplying boats for nationals, international and regional events. That is a clearly defined marketing program that is in place to sell boats. And they sell everyone of them after the regatta. Simple supply and demand. Build inventory -- display it and sell it at a perceived value. Thats business 101.” <<



It is a HUGE investment in time and money and in the recent decade, no slam dunk "sales 101".



Hobie Cat supports the US Sailing Fast and Fun program with discounted product, free parts and many other services. We are currently storeing the programs semi trailer and recently refurbished the Hobie Wave fleet without any cost to the program.



3) What is this??



>>"I honestly couldn't tell you due to the "I'd rather sail the box my hobie came in than a nacra" mentality that is prevalent in many fleets."<<



Do you even know where that "sail the box" thing came from???... That's ancient NACRA talk... This certainly is not a Hobie sailors saying or attitude.



4) Don't forget that if NAHCA had not allowed other classes to "join in the fun" a number of years ago... we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It would have been a "just-Hobie" class association as it was originally intended (as all Class associations are supposed to be). That’s why they are called CLASS associations right? (This is quite seperate from the issue of allowing other classes to join in at Hobie fleet events.) We may have lost a couple more fleets without multihull support, but the net outcome would likely have been the same at this point. Hobie Cat and NAHCA are certainly not to blame for this downfall in interest in catamaran sailing (sailing for that matter). That is a complex issue of economics, fading fads, available leisure time, other available interests and many other factors.



The recent decisions by the North American HOBIE Class Association will allow the fleets to focus on what always has been important... Hobie Cat racing! The guidelines are set that allow for fleets to do their own thing with multihull classes. I really don't see what all the fuss is about. If it is multihull control of the NAHCA... forget it... look at NAMSA or somewhere else for that.



The North American Hobie Class Association should remain Hobie oriented first or what is the point of having a Hobie Class Association? I fully support the idea of having multihull starts at Hobie events. I argued for it when it was first proposed. It allows other Hobie models (that don't have numbers) to race as well as allowing other brands. It allows fleets to have larger turnouts... but, Hobie Class racing should remain the focus and goal of Hobie fleets. It is the original Hobie concept, it works and it is the most fun.

As Matt says ----- Let's clarify a bit...

Ok Matt I will admit I do not have direct access to inside information like you do but, lets go over a few things here.



You said --

1) Jeff Alter does not work for Hobie Cat USA or Hobie Cat France, Brazil, Australia or any Hobie Cat manufacturer. He is a contributor to the class. Jeff donates TONS of his personal time and effort to support Hobie Cat sailing and gets no "pay check" for it. He is a kind and thinking man who loves the sport and the class that his father created. He has a clear understanding of what made Hobie Class racing great to start with and these concepts are still valid today.



Question: Isn't the Alter Family still equity owners of Hobie cat that recieve dividend/profit payments from the company as revenues occur?



My point here Matt is if this in indeed the case then Jeff Alter is ipso facto an employee (of sorts) and should in no way have a major impact in the workings of NAHCA.



You state ---2) Hobie Cat USA does tons to support Hobie Cat racing and NAHCA. A few contributions I can think of at the moment are:



Hobie Cat gives Cash support to NAHCA (a large percentage of the NAHCA annual budget). Also, don't forget that the class association used to be 100% Hobie Cat factory. The entire class association staff were paid Hobie Cat employees... There have been hundreds of major events put on by the factory over the years



Matt, Where is this split between Nahca and HCUSA? This is part of the discussion here. How much does NAHCA "owe" HCUSA -- in the areas of support.



Matt I really don't have a problem with Hobie, Jeff or Nahca. Where I have a problem is at this illusion of "we don't control the class" and then the double talk of "we suggest that you do this". Its about as direct as a teenager going against their parent.



Matt, I'm not trying to devalue what Hobie has done in the past. Just trying to be direct about what Hobie and Nahca should do in the future. If both would move towards a middle position with a national body then all of catsailing would benefit. I have not said that Nahca does not have the right to promote one design racing and I have not said that HCUSA does not have the right to support NAHCA. What I have said loud and clear is that NAHCA does not have the right to exclude people or suggest that "its" fleets do.



Unfortunately, this simple or simplistic suggestion has been take like the words of GOD by Moses and used to alienate other catsailors. That is a problem. Now Matt, what do you suggest to do to correct this?



Back to the other isues ---



It is not easy to sell regatta boat product and is certainly not the most profitable (if there is any) way to do business. It is a costly and time-consuming ordeal that takes a huge toll on the factory personnel. We have been stuck with un-sellable used product many times.



Matt, you and I know that this "unsellable product" is then written off across the books or disassembled and sold as parts. Don't cry a river here -- we're businessmen and that happens. Your marketing lift exceeds your negative arbitrage or you should rethink your business plan.



>> “As for supplying boats for nationals, international and regional events. That is a clearly defined marketing program that is in place to sell boats. And they sell everyone of them after the regatta. Simple supply and demand. Build inventory -- display it and sell it at a perceived value. Thats business 101.” <<



It is a HUGE investment in time and money and in the recent decade, no slam dunk "sales 101".



Matt I said "business 101" not " sales 101 - your words". You provide a healthy look of what your product is, does, says, and delivers. Then you maximize its availability -- it is the most basic prinicple of marketing. How it effects your books is another matter. If it is such a burden on your staff and company then you might want to reconsider your staff and/or business models/activities.



Hobie Cat supports the US Sailing Fast and Fun program with discounted product, free parts and many other services. We are currently storeing the programs semi trailer and recently refurbished the Hobie Wave fleet without any cost to the program.



Matt, yes you guys do and I applaud you for it. Art does a wonderful job and Hobie's support of this program goes largely unnoticed. Which I feel will change in the near future. It is HCUSA/Art Stephens commitment to this program that is taking catsailing to the next generation. A national organization like NAMSA could help in many ways.





>>"I honestly couldn't tell you due to the "I'd rather sail the box my hobie came in than a nacra" mentality that is prevalent in many fleets."<<



Do you even know where that "sail the box" thing came from???... That's ancient NACRA talk... This certainly is not a Hobie sailors saying or attitude.



Matt you need to take a reality check here for a minute. That is a very "my angel would never do that..." train of thought. It comes from both sides of the fence. Several sailors have, are, or feel like they are being run off by this latest fracture in NAHCA's direction.



4) Don't forget that if NAHCA had not allowed other classes to "join in the fun" a number of years ago... we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It would have been a "just-Hobie" class association as it was originally intended (as all Class associations are supposed to be). That’s why they are called CLASS associations right? (This is quite seperate from the issue of allowing other classes to join in at Hobie fleet events.)



Matt - that was the past and that is my point across the board.

What NAHCA has done in the past -- may in part have saved the ship but, its still taking on water and we are all going to drown before it gets back underway.



Hobie does alot of good things -- I'm the first to say it. However, as a Hobiesailor and NAHCA member its might right to say that it does alot wrong too! How things where/are handled in regards to Nahca's operation is wrong. The area representatives (some -- not trying to say all here) did not have a clue about what the average hobie sailor wanted. We in general where not querried about what the future needs are/should be.



NAHCA as I think Mark said "Is a 1000 pound gorrilla" in alot of the country. It has just enough clout to hurt you but not enough to run the jungle.



Hobie Cat does alot of good things and the staff are nice people. Please don't take this critizism as a personal attack -- I don't believe that anyone is or wants to commit fraud here.



What I am saying is that policies need to change and both organization need to toss their parts on the table so that others can in order to build this sport nationally.



Other organizations like CRAM, CRAW, CABB, Tornado Class, A Class, PC, and the others that I have missed. Have alot to offer. They have personel, sailors, business contacts, and assets to bring to the table. As does NAHCA (and hobie if they want to get envolved). By working with other class associations/clubs then we all move farther down the road together. Its called teamwork! Something that no one should be afraid of.



If Hobie wants more business then it needs to cultivate the market. There is more market than just what it "controls - supports" through NAHCA. We have seen the decline in all of HCUSA's catamaran product line (either offered or sold)over the years. Matt you and I know it is due to the fact that people are just not buying your product like they use to. In fact, your new designs are being built by your sister company (except the plastic boats and old models, which HCUSA plans to gradually phase out) --- you know this is due to the larger european market. Why is it a larger market? Because in europe they (manufacturers, fleets, clubs,suppliers, associations) are working together to cultivate the marketplace.



We need to have alittle vision here, choke down the medicine and try to get healthy.



NAMSA could be the vehicle that coordinates all the classes, organizes regatta schedules, publish a national monthly newsletter, manage the image of catsailing, promote catsailing, and speak via MHC to USSA about issues that are important to catsailors.



Remember Matt Hobie Alter just organized what the Yacht clubs didn't want all those years ago. USSA (run by Yacht club-crowd) still thinks of us as outcasts. Why?



Because we are fractionalized, don't want to work together, try to protect our little domains, and argue about inches taken out of each others turf. I guess its kind of like the colonies before the revoluntionary war.



Matt, lick your wounds abit. ( if you feel I attacked you personally then I apologize, I'm abit of an anarchist at heart) Think about the big picture for us all.



Steve

There are two reasons why I'm not happy with the current focus of NAHCA:



A) With some regattas struggling to survive, it doesn't make sense for the NAHCA position to 'shun' x-boat participation. Ultimately, I think a lot of us don't want to see NAHCA take this position because of the damage it can cause to our sport as a whole.



B) I'm particularly frustrated because they were glad to take my money so I could be a member - yet I'm being told that I shouldn't be able partake in regattas as a 'member' because I don't have a Hobie (a racing hobie anyway).

Steve,

I just finished catching up on all the posts (dribble?) since I posted on Friday (was busy at work). A couple of things shine through to me as I read all the exchanges. To keep hashing and re-hashing Hobie's and NAHCA's supposed sins gets us no where and its frankly getting to be a very old refrain.



You said: "Matt, Where is this split between Nahca and HCUSA? This is part of the discussion here. How much does NAHCA "owe" HCUSA -- in the areas of support."



DN: NAHCA is a separate organization from the Hobie Cat company and they have many shared interests. Is there support, yes; is there influence, yes, that follows, its real life.



You said: "I have not said that Nahca does not have the right to promote one design racing and I have not said that HCUSA does not have the right to support NAHCA"



DN: Thanks for making that clear; from your earlier posts I was unsure. At least we can put to bed a few issues that have been argued here.

1. NAHCA is not the same as HCUSA.

2. NAHCA and HCUSA can promote one design racing (I assume you mean Hobies). Thanks, I know they will be relieved to have your blessing.



You said: "What I have said loud and clear is that NAHCA does not have the right to exclude people or suggest that "its" fleets do"



DN: So we get to the heart of your discontent? That NAHCA (possibly under the encouragement of HCUSA?) wants to take the outrageous step of making a "suggestion" to the fleets in its organization! Wow, the gall! How could they be so presumptious? As a Hobie fleet commodore, I and the fleet members take the suggestion to be just that, a suggestion.



You said: "We need to have alittle vision here, choke down the medicine and try to get healthy."



DN: You said it. I don't know quite what you mean about choking down the medicine, although I'm sure you know exactly what medicine will be good for the rest of us. But we do need a little vision. I propose that an expression of vision would allow one to go beyond attack and fault finding, opening or re-opening wounds in the cat sailing body, to an expression of the future and how it will be better and how we will get there; with an understanding that there are some things we don't control such as demographics and competition for people's time. Let me be so presumptious as to offer a few starting points for those who want to exercise some form vision.

1. We accept the fact that the Hobie Cat company did much to build the sport in its early days.

2. We accept the fact that along with their success, they developed an extremely successful one design organization (NAHCA) on a continent-wide level with a corresponding system of organized racing for Hobie one-design catamarans.

3. This system has made them in the eyes of many the 800 or 1000 lb. gorilla in the cat community.

4. Most cat sailors have benefited from this competition organization.

5. It is the dependence, to some extent, on this structure that has non-Hobie owners concerned with NAHCA's pronouncements regarding the open fleet. (If this were a small, insignificant racing organization, who would be making such a fuss?).

6. We accept the fact that NAHCA should operate first and formost in the interests of Hobie cat owners to support and build Hobie racing fleets; as should other manufacturers.

7. We accept that the economic reality in these times is that many Hobie fleets need to include the open class in their regattas.

8. We recognize that in many parts of the country this is being done and everyone benefits.

9. We recognize that the suggestions from NAHCA are just that and fleets will have to make up their own minds about the open class. All fleets will act in a way they (the members) perceive to be in their best interests as they have money on the line when they put on a regatta.

10. We accpet the legitimacy of one-design, whether it is a Lightning regatta, a Hobie regatta, the Performance Nationals, a Tornado regatta, and that one-design interests can co-exist along with open class-portsmouth racing.

11. And lastly, if there is a significant need for a national umbrella organization to represent catamaran sailing interests, such as promoting the sport in general, gaining better access to the water, improving our PR with yacht clubs, improving our standing in US Sailing, organizing open class regattas outside of the Hobie racing structure, then we should look to an organization other than a one-design group or a manufacture to pursue these goals. We would expect each manufacturer and one-design organization to lend support to such an organization.



Sorry to be so long winded; a fault I find in others, I now demonstrate on my own.



David Nees



PS By the way, Steve, although new to cat sailing, I have been sailing all my life and am fully involved with trying to grow my fleet. Beyond that statement, in answer to your earlier post addressed to me, I don't think I need to list in detail my "bona fides" to you in order to participate in this dialogue.

David,



I'm going to address this directly to you. I have been sailing for 35 years, sailing cats for the last 19 years. I have competed in just about every cat out there Hobie, Tornado, Nacra, Inter, Supercat -- etc. etc. etc. Also, competed in the J22 and J24 classes. Won nationals on both J22's and 24's as foredeck on both boats. So I would say that I have been around abit. Also, I have sailed in every division that Hobie has. To be direct here David, I'm talking from personal experience.



I have been welcomed with open arms at every Hobie regatta that I showed up to sail in on my H20. When we showed up with the I20 it just was not the case. This after sailing the H20 at the same regattas for three years!!



David, here I go over your list of "agreements"











DN: Thanks for making that clear; from your earlier posts I was unsure. At least we can put to bed a few issues that have been argued here.

1. NAHCA is not the same as HCUSA.

2. NAHCA and HCUSA can promote one design racing (I assume you mean Hobies). Thanks, I know they will be relieved to have your blessing.



David, Don't be a smart butt. I have paid my NAHCA dues for fifteen years. You better believe that I have the RIGHT to cry foul here! I like a majority of NAHCA members do not feel that we have been adequately represented most of the time but, just didn't say much because it took too much effort.



You said: "What I have said loud and clear is that NAHCA does not have the right to exclude people or suggest that "its" fleets do"



DN: So we get to the heart of your discontent? That NAHCA (possibly under the encouragement of HCUSA?) wants to take the outrageous step of making a "suggestion" to the fleets in its organization! Wow, the gall! How could they be so presumptious? As a Hobie fleet commodore, I and the fleet members take the suggestion to be just that, a suggestion.



David, How long have you been a fleet commodore?? You say that you are new to catsailing. If everything is so right with NAHCA and the fleets why aren't older members vying for the commodore's slot? As for "suggestions" Hobie has been making them for years and at every turn they where set for the betterment of HCUSA not catsailing and at a few times the direct detriment of NACHA. If you doubt me call Rick White and ask him he sailed cats for longer than anyone else that I know of.



You said: "We need to have alittle vision here, choke down the medicine and try to get healthy."



DN: You said it. I don't know quite what you mean about choking down the medicine, although I'm sure you know exactly what medicine will be good for the rest of us. But we do need a little vision. I propose that an expression of vision would allow one to go beyond attack and fault finding, opening or re-opening wounds in the cat sailing body, to an expression of the future and how it will be better and how we will get there; with an understanding that there are some things we don't control such as demographics and competition for people's time. Let me be so presumptious as to offer a few starting points for those who want to exercise some form vision.



1. We accept the fact that the Hobie Cat company did much to build the sport in its early days.



@@ yes they did



2. We accept the fact that along with their success, they developed an extremely successful one design organization (NAHCA) on a continent-wide level with a corresponding system of organized racing for Hobie one-design catamarans.



@@ David your living a provencial mindset -- alot of fleets are mostly X boats now. If you live int he midwest than its probably different.



3. This system has made them in the eyes of many the 800 or 1000 lb. gorilla in the cat community.



@@ No its the suggestion that HCUSA made about ten years ago that told hobie fleets to not allow any other manufacturers boats to sail at any regatta. OH!! You don't remember that?? Well' PAL I do and It pissed me off then and it still does now. BTW. They did it for a year and then most fleets saw the light of day and reversed their course. You see most people just want to have fun, sailing with more boats is fun. No matter if its onedesign or Portsmith.



4. Most cat sailors have benefited from this competition organization.

@@ Yes as I have.



5. It is the dependence, to some extent, on this structure that has non-Hobie owners concerned with NAHCA's pronouncements regarding the open fleet. (If this were a small, insignificant racing organization, who would be making such a fuss?).

@@ David, get a grip here. How about coming over see how other fleets do it -- you know CRAM, CRAW, CABB. You'd find out that more is better.



6. We accept the fact that NAHCA should operate first and formost in the interests of Hobie cat owners to support and build Hobie racing fleets; as should other manufacturers.



@@ Wrong David we do not accept this. Sailors should build sailing fleets not loyalty to boat builders. If your boat is the best for you than sail it. If it is not than sail something else. That is the basic rights we all have. For NACHA to suggest otherwise is BS.



7. We accept that the economic reality in these times is that many Hobie fleets need to include the open class in their regattas.

@@ You betcha! Then why in the Hell is this so difficult. We need to build fleets irregardless of design or builder.



8. We recognize that in many parts of the country this is being done and everyone benefits.

@@ David, How many X boat owners do you have in your fleet? Do they have an equal voice? If so then are you still a Hobie fleet? Why could you not be a NAMSA fleet with multiple class affiliations? Or is the "H" word to hard to erase.



9. We recognize that the suggestions from NAHCA are just that and fleets will have to make up their own minds about the open class. All fleets will act in a way they (the members) perceive to be in their best interests as they have money on the line when they put on a regatta.



@@ Ok David what happens when someone elses money is on the line??



10. We accpet the legitimacy of one-design, whether it is a Lightning regatta, a Hobie regatta, the Performance Nationals, a Tornado regatta, and that one-design interests can co-exist along with open class-portsmouth racing.

@@ David, look at this again. Is it one design or a one design regatta? One designs can race at the same regatta that portsmith boats race at. If you state differently then we disagree. Its all in the scoring. With more people around you have more people to help make a regatta happen.



11. And lastly, if there is a significant need for a national umbrella organization to represent catamaran sailing interests, such as promoting the sport in general, gaining better access to the water, improving our PR with yacht clubs, improving our standing in US Sailing, organizing open class regattas outside of the Hobie racing structure, then we should look to an organization other than a one-design group or a manufacture to pursue these goals. We would expect each manufacturer and one-design organization to lend support to such an organization.



@@ David this is exactly what I have been saying. I'm not trying to strip Hobie one design racing. I am trying to open up ALL regattas to ALL boats. As I have said before it is all in the scoring!!!



david I am glad that you are active in building your fleet. Pat yourself on the back, its a hard job and we all need to do it. But, we need to do it as a group. Not as sectional divisions.

As I stated before. Unless someone makes waves nothing gets fixed. If I have to be the bad guy to make a positive change. Then I will. I want my kids (7 and on the way) to enjoy this sport. If that happens then I could care less who thinks I'm an [censored].



Steve