Matt,
But is it possible that non-Hobies did not show up at Rochester last year because they had heard about the new Hobie policy and weren't sure whether they were welcome or not?

Maybe they were deterred from attending in 2004 by what Paul Ulibarri said in his initial decree regarding the phase-out plan to eliminate non-Hobies during 2004:

"Recognizing the far reaching and immediate negative results the implementation will no doubt have for your organization, we request that you develop a plan for meeting this directive and submit it to the IHCA Executive Director by December 31, 2003.

"The NAHCA phase out plan must include several IHCA imposed conditions, specifically;
"The plan must terminate by December 31, 2004.
"• Open Class boats permitted to participate under a phase out program will be restricted only to boats that have previously participated in a Hobie event prior to August 1, 2003 i.e Only Skipper and boat combinations that were raced in Hobie events prior to August 1, 2003 will be permitted to race in any 2004 Hobie event.
"• No new Open Class boats will be permitted to participate.
"• Skippers of all Open Class boats eligible and desiring to participate in this phase out program will be required to obtain IHCA or Regional Annual Membership for 2004."


This is me again talking: Based upon the above, I would guess that the phase-out plan effectively discouraged most non-Hobies from trying to participate in 2004.

So the four non-Hobies that did show up probably are the few people who did not get the message.

I only bring this up to point out that just because only four boats showed up does not mean that there are not a bunch more out there who would have liked to show up. So those statistics do not necessarily mean anything.

Mark:

Matt really described what most of us see here. Many of us were determined to retain the open classes, until we looked at the real numbers of participation in our Division. Fleet 204 out of Syracuse seems to be the biggest Regatta traveling Fleet and they are all Hobies. It takes just as much work to run a fifty boat regatta as it does a twenty boat regatta, so we decided to go with the numbers.

I don't want to get into this Hobie vs non-Hobie stuff again. I agree with Mary that it would be a shame to lose any participation for any orphan Hobie, but we weren't sure if there was anything we could do about it.
I think Rochester analyzed it the same way.

We want to be happy again...We want to sail and meet afterwards for a beer...

Wyatt

Mary:

I guess you and I were typing at the same time.

I can assure you that all of the Fleets in our Division were promoting open classes in 2004. Everyone knew that all boats were welcomed (with the exception of 204's Madcatter). We were all surprised at the lower numbers. I'm not sure why we have larger Hobie numbers in this area; I agree that the Inter 17s, Nacra 5.8's and 6.0's are super boats, but they have no local dealerships and are just not promoted in this area. There are Hobie dealerships in Buffalo and Syracuse NY.

We tried hard to stress business as usual, and the numbers seemed to tell us which way to go. Most Fleets are run by 20% of the membership and most of these are active racers that want to continue to offer a nice venue.

Wyatt

Looking back on results from past Rochester events along with all of Div.16 shows that there has not been more than 7 non Hobie boats in the past 10 plus years at any regatta Many of the boats listed in the open class were Hobie's. There is usually only 4 non Hobie's. The open class did not start up in Div.16 because of a demand by non Hobie's but by the protest of Hobie owners that did not want to use a comp tip. Inviting non Hobies was started by the smaller events to help them financially. Fleet 204 did not exclude anyone. As per fleet charters we ran a Hobie only event all along. I personally think it would be great to have an F18 start and allow the Sharks from Canandaigua to participate at the Madcatter. The CMOR regatta the Shark Fleet runs is great and has always welcomed us. It would be nice to reciprocate and allow thier one design fleet to race with us.

I don't guess that running two regattas at the same time would be allowed? I know that defeats the whole idea by Hobie, but areas that have a good mix of boats would want the numbers to help financially. The other thing that I don't see mentioned is; for the average racer the only reason to go to Hobie only regattas is for the points. How many does this affect? Hobie fleets in our area have come and gone. As commodore in the late '80s we had a "Hobie regatta" in which we sent results of the Hobie fleet races. Other than that, there was no other involvement from Hobie. Unless the class association is footing the bill what is the advantage?

BTW I've always had a hobie... 18, 20, 16 so I'm not against the boat or mfr., my next one I'd like to have is a Tiger! So I'm not anti Hobie, just anti exclusion.

Clayton
S27, H16

In division 9 we tried it from all these angles. However, HCA is pretty clear that they're not interested in any side-stepping work arounds. Obviously, they can't police every event, but they expect the regatta (and the course) be dedicated to Hobie.

The Kiwi has it spot on! Keep "Dittoing" Mary........There is a mainstream group of catamaran racing sailors in Florida that evolve there boat choice as general interest wanes in there existing class.To get the next best thing and promote it is naturel. The I20 is still there but for how much longer before it falls or ends up in Delray ! Dingram correct me if I am wrong but you were all about the I20 for some time,now you moved to F18. Are you pushing the 1design group to move to F18 with you?

The only thing I am pushing is 1design/Formula not a particular boat or brand, and I am still all about the N20 (I love that damn boat), but I won't sail it open if it comes to that! As you can clearly see I am not a fan of open racing. It serves a purpose but it also has some significant problems.

I have and sail both the N20 and the F18. I travel probably as much if not more than any multihull sailor in Florida. I will sail the boat that is predicted to have the largest class for a given regatta. Because I travel so much I don't have to settle for sailing open.

Yes, I am a 1design/Formula bigot!

Dave

Ditto again.

Looks like one hell of a marketing oportunity for some micro brewery - Hobie Beer.
"Keep your regatta all Hobie"

Well said, I am also anti exclusion, Not sure what HCA has that is not freely available to anyone or why the racing community cares what this manufacturer decries. Our fleets could hold hobie only regatta's and 1/2 the boats would show up. While this might seem an acceptable loss to some I would ask why? Why does anyone care what Hobie demands, Our fleet is insured directly and separately from HCA, we are free Americans and we enjoy being such. I say put an end to racism or fleetism. If cat sailors need to belong then why not the American or World Catamaran Assn. with a Texas fleet and a California fleet. There are all kinds of racism, why do cat sailors have to indulge in yet another kind of we and them.

I am not anti-exclusion on the part of the Hobie people. I am just pro one-design and/or formula for all classes of boats. If the Hobie Class policy works to increase the size of their one-design fleets, that's great.

Meanwhile, one-design fleets of other classes will have more chance to grow because they now have more opportunities to race in Open, non-Hobie events as one-design fleets instead of being put into a Portsmouth class.

So the Hobie policy is probably already resulting in helping more of the non-Hobie one-design fleets to flourish.

Only 4 to 7 non hobies showing, so we are going to exclude them. Thats around 4-700$ per regatta that could help defray the expenses, plus 8-14 people that dont get to race/sail.
What a shame that we judge a person by their boat and not as a fellow sailor. dont get me wrong, I understand the HCA edict, but I dont have to agree.

David
F18-non denominational

One-Design sailing and open class sailing can and do coexist...the Midwest is living proof of that. CRAM, CRAW, and OCRA provide both one-design racing, when there are enough of the same boat to make a fleet...and when there are not, they provide an open fleet and utilize portsmouth ratings.

Additionally, I don't think there would be a single person in any of those groups who would say that the revitalization of the Hobie fleets and Division 10 itself has been detrimental to their organizations. I fact, we have added significant numbers of boats to some of their events.

The Hobie Class Association is one of the best one-design class associations in the world. By directing all of their efforts to one-design racing, we can assure the continuing growth and success of local, regional, national, and world events. One design racing...racing in it's purest form.

Jeff

I'm going to attempt this point for the billionth time.

While I don't think that anyone would argue that onedesign and/or formula is purest racing...

...the purists all neglect to consider that the average catamaran sailor PURCHASES HIS BOAT FOR THINGS OTHER THAN JUST RACING.

He has financial considerations (looked at prices of new boats today?)
He has considerations for local conditions
He has considerations for used-boat availability
He has considerations for the casual use of his boat (I bet most of his time is spent casually sailing)

I have maintained, and still maintain, that the average catamaran sailor purchases his boat with racing being rather far down on his list of things that are important in his boat purchase consideration.

I'm DAMNED if I'll exclude 75% (we have more than half our regatta attendance non-Hobie class) of any regatta because I want to force someone to purchase a certain boat in order to race, which is what this onedesign purist crap boils down to.

You want to lose people from our sport? You go right ahead on and demand that people buy a certain boat - that'll do it for sure.

Your best answer is Formula racing... and even then, I'd bet there are LOTS of people who don't want to put even that much money into it.

sea ya
tami
Vice-commodore, Coast Catamaran Club
Ocean Springs, Mississippi
Most happily sailing my 23-y.o. NACRA 18sq, and ain't ABOUT to give her up.

Amen!

Tami I'm with you,

Whose best interest is being served?,
is it the hobie 17 sailor that gets to go to a hobie only regatta with his other 2 hobie 17 pals and they get a 1,2& 3rd place for their "Class race" and never have to be tainted with the horrible visual of a brand new x17 made by yyy corporation with all the new innovations that can be put on a 17 foot boat?

I am certain it is not in the best interest of the sport to exclude X% of the sailors from a regatta and all they know about racing. What happens when they organize themselves and then the hobie fleet wants to come play and cant?

News Flash: New catamaran fleet formed all cats except hobies are welcome.

I am personally sick of the "we are better than them and you cant play with us" attitude.

If hobie is the last cat manufacturer standing then when it is time to buy another boat I guess it will be a hobie, or a home built maybe I'll call my new company yyy corporation.

"beating a dead horse"

beating a dead horse: You are beating a dead horse when you insist on talking about something that cannot be changed. Example: "I'd like to talk with you again about what happened." Reply: "Oh, come on. Let's not beat a dead horse."

Beating a dead horse is an action that has no purpose, because no matter how hard or how long you beat a dead horse, it is not going to get up and run. Example: "Let's not talk about it any more. Okay?" Reply: "You're right. We're just beating a dead horse."

To repeatedly bring up a particular topic with no chance of affecting the outcome is beating a dead horse. Example: "Dad, are you sure we can't get a new computer for the upstairs?" Reply: "Son, we talked about this and the decision was 'no'. You are beating a dead horse."

http://www.goenglish.com/BeatADeadHorse.asp

Foregoing the opportunity to make sarcastic comparisons between the HCA and the "dead horse" you say it is, do you really think the HCA should have no interest in what the people who belong to it (or did) think?

This post has a great deal of relevance in seeking out the impact of the 'edict' around the U.S. I'm certainly interested in it as should everyone in the sport regardless of what they sail. ESPECIALLY those within any organizational capacity.

This thread was hijacked!

My summary and question were... What is the impact.
Based on the responses. I would modify the summary of the survey as follows.

Texas, the Gulf coast, Florida, the South East and the Chesapeake.... No changes on the water. Club have chosen to run open regattas with one design classes.

Upstate New York. Some non hobie sailors cannot participate in regattas that they previously supported in the New York Region.
The Shark one design fleet may loose out on some racing since other clubs don't reciprocate and host them any longer
Hobie sailors without one design fleets race in a smaller Hobie open.

New Jersey/Deleware. No changes. No non hobie racers who loose out. Hobie 20 and tiger sailors have very small open hobie fleets.

Sandy Hook... They run both kinds of events.

New England. Clever sheduling means Hobie and non hobie sailors compete at seperate clubs for two weekends.

Colorado. No changes... No non hobie sailors who would loose out.

Wisconson, Michigan and Ohio run open events. No changes, Two events seem to be Hobie only.

One cryptic comment concerning California about non hobie sailors missing out on traditional regattas. ???? Could be the region most impacted by the politics.

Hobiezelot is right. The horse is dead... The question is ...

Did the rotting carcas of the dead horse foul the water?

Have I characterized your region accurately?

Take Care
Mark

(Started me thinking about how long the pope can last on that slab before he starts stinking since they don't pickle popes)


PS Dave and Mary... start your own thread on the virtues of one design.