Jill Nickerson asked me to post this on her behalf:



> I can only ship this out to so many people....I hope people spread

> the

> word on this like wild fire.

>

> Thanks for the update.....while opinion will vary I fear that the

> HOBIE

> class is about to make the fatal shot in the foot instead of the

> arm. I

> have been a member of the Hobie Class for years and the charter was

> suppose to be for the sailors but instead has turned out for one

> manufacturer. It has been very sad to watch the class disintegrate

> before my eyes over the years with the amount of racers getting

> fewer and

> fewer and the number of fleets willing to hold a regatta giving up

> due to

> the lack of attendance.

>

> We had finally started to see the Cat racing START to turn an

> optimistic

> corner by uniting cat sailors and having events that attract

> everyone.

> Eventually with this program you would have started to see more

> regattas

> out there but now things are doomed. A typical instance is to see

> how

> many hobies showed up at the steeple chase race....1 .....a Hobie

> 21.....in a field of almost 40 boats.

>

> Cat sailing should be a contest between sailors and not between

> manufacturers.....if the manufacture makes a hot boat, people will

> buy it

> and sail it......who has the hottest will vary from year to year but

> by

> closing a class to one manufacturer.....the class is no longer for

> the

> sailors.

>

> We had a forum of almost 100 sailors at the Steeple Chase race in

> Florida

> and they UNANIMOUSLY voted to try and resurrect the National

> Multihull

> Sailing Association that has been in effect for years but dormant as

> a

> class to accommodate ALL cats and promote RACING not any one

> manufacturer.

>

> There was a lot of excitement with this idea and it would be run to

> accommodate all of its members and not segregate and make a crude

> attempt

> to accommodate an X class. Those classes that have enough to have

> start

> would have one.

>

> If we can start a board of officers....I know my membership check

> will be

> one of the first in.

>

> We have asked Nigel Pitt to head it up because he did a wonderful

> job

> building the Hobie with members that are basically no longer

> welcome. He

> has done some wonderful things to promote CAT sailing and is our

> great

> hope of the future to build a cat class!

>

> I HOPE THAT YOU PASS THIS MESSAGE ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW and

> encourage

> Nigel to fire this baby up!

>

> Jill Nickerson

>

>

>

> attentRastahobie@aol.com

> > To: MIMIAPPEL@aol.com ; grussl@hotmail.com ; Miracle429@aol.com ;

> > nigel@twinhulls.com ; pulibarri@compuserve.com ;

> > stevenjung@hotmail.com ; rmcveigh@starpower.net ; kat@frii.com ;

> > shirley@azstarnet.com ; Rogerbr@aol.com ; John.Bauldry@onstar.com

> > Cc: chriskoper@hotmail.com ; gvaleske@gte.net ; ejlundin@home.com

> ;

> > fwhite1@cfl.rr.com ; cmvabva@yahoo.com ; hobie335@dpnet.net ;

> > davebarbara448@msn.com ; hobiemex@hotmail.com ; railray@flash.net

> ;

> > mrohrer@asf.com ; Hobierog@aol.com ; AndyHum@aol.com

>

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:18:15 -0500 (EST) "\\e"

> writes:

> > Hi Jill

> > Don't know if you saw this final report

> >

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: Rastahobie@aol.com

> > To: MIMIAPPEL@aol.com ; grussl@hotmail.com ; Miracle429@aol.com ;

> > nigel@twinhulls.com ; pulibarri@compuserve.com ;

> > stevenjung@hotmail.com ; rmcveigh@starpower.net ; kat@frii.com ;

> > shirley@azstarnet.com ; Rogerbr@aol.com ; John.Bauldry@onstar.com

> > Cc: chriskoper@hotmail.com ; gvaleske@gte.net ; ejlundin@home.com

> ;

> > fwhite1@cfl.rr.com ; cmvabva@yahoo.com ; hobie335@dpnet.net ;

> > davebarbara448@msn.com ; hobiemex@hotmail.com ; railray@flash.net

> ;

> > mrohrer@asf.com ; Hobierog@aol.com ; AndyHum@aol.com

> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 2:12 PM

> > Subject: X-class final report (we are done)

> >

> >

> > The task force e-mail discussion had very good

> participation.

> > We

> > heard from many of the division representatives and others from

> the

> > Hobie

> > community. As could be expected views varied greatly, from those

> > that

> > want to leave everything up to the fleets to those that want to

> try

> > to

> > make things Hobie only again. However, the majority of people had

>

> > some

> > common views. They wanted to allow x-class participants in most

> > events

> > and they wanted to promote Hobie Cat one-design racing. Although

> > there

> > was a lot of discussion about the x-class when asked to vote on 2

> > specific

> > options the response was not as good. The vote was deadlocked

> > between all

> > three original options. But if we look at all the e-mails I think

>

> > that

> > option 2 should be the proposal.

> >

> > "The x-class should be only one start for all non-Hobie

> > boats.

> > This start can be fit into the start sequence at a place which

> best

> > promotes good sailing for all the classes. This includes the

> > beginning

> > Hobie 16 sailors (b and c fleet) so they do not get stuck with

> > one-lap

> > races while x-class boats are doing three and four lap races. The

>

> > x-class

> > must provide a scorer to figure out handicaps and do the handicap

> > scoring;

> > this may include some one to take times at the finish. But all

> > area

> > championships should be Hobie only events. The NAHCA should

> search

> > out

> > and work with fleets willing to host these area championships."

> >

> > Like I mentioned previously, these are guidelines which we

> > want

> > fleets and divisions to follow. They are not rules or laws,

> > therefore

> > setting slightly higher goals does not hurt us. Also, people

> > generally

> > will not go above the guidelines set out for them, so setting the

> > bar a

> > little high can help some fleets do more than they may have

> > otherwise.

> > As with how x-class boats fit into regattas, what to charge

>

> > them to

> > sail with us had varying responses. Due to the time constraints

> we

> > do not

> > have any guidelines for fees or membership. Although, many people

>

> > feel

> > that everyone should be paying equally, there are those that

> believe

> > that

> > we should not force non-Hobie owners to join the class. This

> topic

> > needs

> > to be looked into more by a separate group or the same group at

> > another

> > time.

> > Hopefully, all the fleets and divisions will follow the

> > guidelines,

> > but it would be naive to expect that. To make a more Hobie

> > one-design

> > oriented regatta schedule in the future, NAHCA has to work at the

> > grass

> > roots level to create that view among the average sailors. NAHCA

> > should

> > promote Hobie racing with out alienating other classes. Promoting

> > Hobie-racing should be NAHCA’s focus and how x-class relates to

> > that

> > promotion will need to be revisited periodically.

> >

> >

> >

> >

Just a couple thoughts here...



I think a National multihull association is the perfect solution. There is no reason for one class to give up their identity and purpose just to respond to the needs of other dying classes. I am confident that both can flourish. Both can enhance the other over time.



The fact that only one Hobie Cat showed up at the Steeple Chase is not indicative of a lack of interest by Hobie sailors. It is a lack of interest in that kind of sailing. This speaks well for the one design class concept... not against it. The Steeple Chase does not promote entries to the, other than, open class minded sailors. Proof of this is in an article written after the event, on this site:



>"Due to the possible perils of this race, new sailors can be a problem and usually not allowed to register. After racing had begun it was discovered that a Prindle 16 had registered and this was the first race for the sailors -- not good!



Here they are finally finishing -- hours after the ceremonies were over. But the sailors all went down to the dock and whooped and hollered as the finished. By the way, note the bows in the air. They were not doing a roll-tack -- this was the way they were sailing the boat. Is there a seminar in their future?"<



How does that attitude promote multihull sailing? That only turns more sailors away from the sport! I think that event represents the attitude of the multihull class racer. Those that fare well buy bigger, faster and more expensive boats, sails and equipment just to try and stay competitive. There are needs for several kinds of racing. Those who want extreme and others that want the fun, equality and camaraderie of one-design sailing that promotes new and old sailors alike... not discourages them. NAHCA best represents these sailors. This has been proven out over the years to be the most successful system and class. The decline in interest in Hobie Sailing may be, but the decline in interest in other classes has been deadly to them. Hobie and NAHCA have survived due to its format and depth. To suggest that NAHCA would best suit all sailors by being a multihull class just doesn't fit.



Multihull class minded sailors should find a place for themselves... Go National Multihull Sailing Association!

The NAHCA is just that, it represents one-design racing, with an almost simplistic view. Anyone can buy a used hobie an race it. No need to buy the latest and greatest sails and rigging. Just hop on and have fun. That is what's kept the Hobie scene alive over the years and it will continue to do so. (I should not forget to mention it's the people too)

I think the NAHCA and an umbrella catamaran association can coincide. Afterall, they just have two different views, right? What's so bad about that? I don't see the need to bash an organazation that has been succesful over the years, not to mention, also puts on events both on a National level and a local level every year.

Well Said,



To blame the decline in sailing on NAHCA is pretty narrow minded. NAHCA is the only multihull class organization that has remained even remotely successful even with the decline in sailings popularity.



The people who sail Hobies dont do it because they have some deep seated lust for the Hobie Company, or are under the misguided impression that Hobie is the only company who can build good boats, they sail them because they enjoy 1 design sailing. NAHCA is the only National organization that promotes 1 design. Why should they change their formula, which has been succesful, to incorporate ideas that have failed for a variety of reasons with organizations of the past.



Without Hobie, there is no one dedicated to promoting 1 design sailing, and despite the banter on this web sight, there are a lot of racers who prefer that type of racing.



Sail Fast



Matt

The problem here is NAHCA and its volunteers run the racing circuit in most parts of the country. Contrast this with dingy's where independent Yacht Clubs host regattas for a great number of unrelated classes. The yacht clubs do not organize and exclude E scows from attending regattas or tell the Escows... you need to create your own racing circuit. NAHCA policy determines MOST of the Buoy racing circuit in the country. They are more then an association of one design classes...By controlling the racing circuit. They can choose to operate as a monopoly. NAHCA is the 1000 lb gorrilla here and basically will do what it wants. Why are they choosing to exclude other one design cat classes. Why are they saying... Go develop a second buoy's racing circuit.



NAHCA claims to be about one design racing. I would bet that there would be a unanamous consensus supporting NAHCA for this principled stand. Hosting other one design cat classes (A class, Tornado class, Inter 20 class, Nacra 6.0 and Nacara 5.5 Uni and Inter 17 classes, formula 16, 18 and 20) would be consistent with this philosophy.



The open class (portsmouth) recognizes that many boats, (Hobie 21's, Hobie 18SX's Hobie 17 sports plus many others) do not have enough participation to race as a class and that having a portsmouth class for them to compete in and being inclusive is a good thing.



Secondly, when currently active one design classes don't generate a decent turnout, the portsmouth system allows the racers at the regatta to continue to compete... Much better then turning around and going home because there was no one to race against.



Matt wrote"NAHCA is the only National organization that promotes 1 design. Why should they change their formula, which has been succesful, to incorporate ideas that have failed for a variety of reasons with organizations of the past."



Well they are certainly not the only organization that promotes one design racing (see the active one design classes above). Promotion of the Classes (note the plural) and Running the events are two seperate functions and I believe that this is the issue.

BTW What failed policy of past organizations are you refering to. Almost all of the inactive classes were oriented to one desgin and simply lost market share.



It seems to me that the NAHCA strategy of Hobiecentric was articulated by Jeff Alter in a letter to the Division chairmen. Paraphrasing, Hobie should focus on the Hobie 16 and the Hobie Tiger because they are viable international classes. NAHCA should discourage all other non Hobies by putting them in X class and not scoring them on handicap Most importatntly Hobie sailors should explain to them the virtues of racing one of these two Hobie boats. His vision is that by implementing this policy, NAHCA will maintain large competive one design fleets.



He is saying that NAHCA should use its monopoly position running buoy's racing to minimize non hobie participation while simultaneouly trying to persuade existing Hobie sailors (18 and 20 racers) to convert to one of the two favored classes.



I and many others don't feel that this is a strategy for success now.



Mark Schneider

Part of the problem (no just for cat racing) is that there are too many classes.

This, I think, is part of what NAHCA is trying to fix.

There are a plethora of dinghy classes that are all well supported. Why can't that be the same for the cat-world? We just seem to have the view that we'll move around the existing groups of sailors until one pot is the biggest. It seems to me we need to add enough numbers to the ranks overall - get new sailors added to the mix. Dinghy converts! Young 'uns! Trying to convert 18, 20, 6.0, A-Class sailors to one or two classes is only good for those one or two classes - it does not add to cat-sailing overall. Even as a marketing strategy for a company it's short-sited - you'll only sell as many boats as the current number of sailors will support. You might get a burst up front but it will slow down again unless new blood is being brought in from outside the current cat-sailing world. Grow the sport, not just one class.

Mark, I just want to complement you on such a well reasoned and expressed point of view. It really helps to understand the issue. Thanks.



Mike Fahle

Here in OHIO we are fortunate that Jamie Diamond started OCRA (Ohio Catamaran Racing Association) six years ago when it became apparent to him that one deign racing needed an assist in this area to include ALL the various one designs without regard or favoritism to ANY ONE manufacturer class or classes. He almost single handedly got OCRA started and nurtured it to be very succesful and has been able to turn it over to others to run lately although he stays very involved. This discussion makes me appreciate his efforts more than ever and also makes me aware that this type of effort is what is needed in other parts of the country. OCRA coordinates regatta schedules and provides communication (nice website and newsletter) to members and sometimes scoring assistance to regatta organizers. It provides three classes based on Portsmouth number ranges and season class champion awards and a season overall champion award. It allows regatta organizers to break-out other award classes as desired by manufacturer, sex, age, etc. This has allowed cat racing to continue in OHIO even though many Hobie fleets have disappeared; in fact even while Division Ten has disappeared. Our sister organization in Michigan (CRAM) has done much the same thing for cat racing in that state (think Catfight for example). They have different methods but the basic idea is the same. There are other similar organizations around the country and it can be done where no such organization exists now. Just think about what you want, contact existing organizations for ideas, get a friend or two together and get one started for your state or area. Good luck and good racing for all cats!



Mike Fahle

Mark hit the problem right on the head. The NAHCA runs the catamaran racing circuit in most of the regions in the US and Canada. The point that Mark fails to see is that this circuit was intended to be a Hobie racing circuit and not a multihull circuit or the only multihull circuit. It is different from the yacht club scene, because most yacht clubs are not made up of one fleet, rather individuals that may or may not belong to a one-design class. The yacht clubs then run races accordingly. Some may be open to everyone, but there are many that are not. Some examples are Sailing World NOOD’s, the MORC circuit, The Olympic class regattas, The Big Boat series, and there are numerous Laser and Sunfish only regattas.



Mark thinks that the NAHCA should provide all the venues for everybody regardless of the consequences to it’s own classes. I think that everyone would agree that they would like everyone else to sail the same boat that they do. Under this premise, and under the premise that the NAHCA has the largest classes, if the NAHCA provided one design racing for all classes equally it would be hurting itself and its classes. All the other sailors would be trying to persuade Hobie sailors to their class (as well as the other classes). These other sailors have already proven they do not want to sail a Hobie because the only way they would come to a Hobie event is if they could bring the boat they have, not buy a Hobie, therefore, It is more likely that Hobie sailors would switch to these other classes than the other way around.

Why is it such an evil thought and policy for the NAHCA to try to protect its classes? Why should they not want to make it beneficial to join one of their classes as opposed to a competing class? Why is it the NAHCA’s responsibility to look after multihull sailing at it’s own expense? No one on this forum or the old forum ever asks this of any other catamaran class or class association. The NAHCA is trying to include everyone and still maintain its strength and stature as the premier catamaran class.



A separate organization whether it is NAMSA or the Multihull council to unite all catamaran sailors and classes is a good thing, and is needed. The NAHCA is not the organization for that, and it should not be slandered for having policies that do not fully promote unification.



Rob Jerry

Tiger 527

H16 102686

Mark,

I am taking a quote from your post: "The problem here is NAHCA and its volunteers run the racing circuit in most parts of the country."

How is that a problem? If the NAHCA and it's volunteer's didn't run races, then a vast majority of cat sailors, whether they be Hobie sailors, Inter sailors, Prindles, NACRA's etc., *would* have a problem - No races to go to.



But something else that I think has not been addressed, is that the NAHCA has basically set "guidelines" for the fleets. (as far as this "X-class" thing goes) They are not forcing any fleet to change their ways. They recognize that most fleets need to have an open class at their events to help with the costs asscoiated with putting an event on. That to me suggests that the NAHCA really does care about their members.

I couldn't agree with you more Rob. Hobie racing is exactly that....HOBIE racing. They hold no responsibility to other classes. I think it would be wise to add other classes as an X class and they can score themselves (taking the burden off the volunteers). If you want to race one design, then buy a Hobie. This is the reason many people buy Hobies (including myself). I am not interested in racing using a handicap system, thus I bought a Hobie. NAHCA has a great thing going and there is no reason to change it. If there was another multihull organization that wanted to hold races, then by all means....go for it and I may very well attend. However, I will attend a Hobie race first and foremost. One design racing truly is sailor against sailor....NOT wallet against wallet. I was involved in windsurfing racing in the 80s and it eventually became a race of who had the most money to buy the latest gear. That isn't racing!



"Why is it the NAHCA’s responsibility to look after multihull sailing at it’s own expense? "...............exactly....it isn't!



Kip

H16

bravo. hobie cat association.

you do not hear the monohullers bitching about the j 24 association.

As an active member of NAHCA and US Sailing, I welcome NAMSA, and look forward to becoming a member of this Organization. In my past 30 years of racing Hobie Cats, I prefer the one class format, but also enjoy the long distance races, and races with other classes. I favor any group that will expand and grow our sport.

For you that decry the decline in sailing popularity, I would ask you the following questions, do you:

1. Support your local fleet and assist in planning and running local races?

2. Take part in your Division Fleet activities?

3. Belong to the National Fleet Organization and US Sailing?

4. Assist at local boat shows?

5. Support local sailing clubs, schools, classes, and training programs?

6. Work with Park Departments and local Government to expand sailing facilities, ramps, and storage facilities?

7. Support your local Cat Dealer, by buying boats and parts from him, so he can stay in business?



Don't ask what your Sailing Association can do for you, but what you can do for Sailing.



Caleb Tarleton, Hobie Cat Fleet 95, Division 4, H-17 # 6185

One design means several options:

1. As a new Mystere 4.3 owner the manufacturer gave me an option to increase my sailing participation thru racing.. Sail 5 regatta's and get a new jib....Sail 7 and get a new spinnaker..That was all I needed to hear and off I went in search of regatta's.. My new spinnaker is waiting to be picked up..I hear it's pink? way kool... Now because of that offer being made to a fleet of 30 new boat owners an instant fleet was born. OCRA & CRAM gave us the avenues to sail either one design or handicap racing formats. Who cares we were sailing..isn't that the point

2. Thanks to Hobie Cat for providing rental boats again this year and Rick & Mary for continuing a format to race one design at the 4th Wave Nationals in Key Largo. I have been to all four and will continue to support this project because the friends, sailing, location and format are a blast.. With excellent race committee (Drove from Ohio, Doug Young and Carol Fahle) they ran 18 races in 3 days for 36 racers... How can you blast success.. I bet if you asked all those racers what boats they sailed on all summer you'd probably have every cat type boat represented.

A blanket Multihull organization would be a welcome. Just keep avenues open for everyone to race and they will come.

It was fun to see a set of twins from Ohio, the last two summers, participate in many of our events. They have an old H16 and have spent lots of time learning but they are hooked and they are our future in this sport..

Ok, I've read through the dribble and have come to the conclusion that a great deal of you (Kip, Rob, etc.). Just don't get it.



Yes, NAHCA runs a great deal of the races in this country. Is it "illegal" to not invite other "x" classes? No. Immoral - yes, illegal - no. The problem you brainwashed morons, is that in a majority of the country if you don't own a hobie than you can't even sail/race it in your area!! Your not welcome at hobie regattas and your damn sure not welcome at the local yacht club. That I believe could be considered conspiracy, exclusion, discrimination, mental harrasment but, hell let's not go there.



NAHCA's , well more directly Jeff Alter's position is wrong. It is killing catsailing by dividing like minded people into two groups. Your local fleet should be setup for all sailors, the fleet can have multiple affliations (NAHCA, PC, Tornado, Mystere, Boyer) so that all sailors can feel welcome sailing a cat!!! Excusivity, does not bring anything to the table. Hell if it did we'd still have segregation! Everytime I hear this "Hobie" only dribble I think about "colored" only/White only signs in the south.



The issue is past one design racing. If you can't see that then you need a reality check. I think every fleet in the US needs to affiliate with NAMSA, then look at NAHCA, and their other affiliations as just that- one design affiliations. After that happens if you want one design only racing, then schedule different regattas using the other classes as support crew on your "on" days, and then support them the same way when its their turn to go sail.



If you look around you, which your probably too narrow minded to do. You could probably grow your fleet by atleast twice its size, have more club dollars, more volunteers, more opportunities for friends,and a better bang for your buck.



The support your dealer dribble is bullcrap since most dealers sell all cat products (or will). You brainwashed NACHA morons need to see the light of day! Get past the box you sail and look at the sport.



Sorry to be so meanspirited but for now I'm ashamed to sail a HOBIE



Steve



H20 622 (for sale) -- maybe I'll buy a jetski so people have a reason to hate me!

That also brings up a thought. Why in the Hell do you think Jet skis got such a good shot? Well let's see......



They where cheap (not now but originally) -- Yes, but so was a cat.



Everyone could use one with instruction -- yes, cat too



National dealer network -- yes, oh I forgot so did cats (actually at that time more cat dealers in nation -- how about today?)



National manufacturer support -- yes, opps -- cats nope, never (see hobie didn't even care when it HAD market share)



National organization -- nope, opps -- NAHCA was there protecting our butts! (I feel so safe and cared for)



A couple of reasons that there are sooooooo many jetskis out there and why we are a dieing sport.



1. The jstski is easy to buy, you can play alone and if you want to race there is a national sanctioning body sanctioning ALL jet boats.



2. We are a fractionalized, petty group of individuals with no focus trying to shout our own objectives with no national body that has any teeth.



We need a national body with some LEADERS than can dictate to the manufactures what we want. Right now there are less than 10 people deciding the fate of the sport for the rest of us. WHY? Thank you for asking Virginia. Because it is easier to cry, get lost in open debate, play patty-cake, than to do a hard job.



Think it over.



Steve

Why not utilize the USSA Multihull Council as the national governing body for all multihull groups. Its there, working well, and ready to go. Just a thought.

One of the issues which is a great point of contention is the perception that MOST Hobie Regattas, races sponsored by Hobie Fleets, do not allow non Hobies to race at all.

I would like to hear from all Hobie Fleets which sponsor a regatta and tell us their position.

I will begint by stating that Hobie Fleet 97, Division 9, Raleigh, NC, has encouraged X boat participation in all events for many years and several years ago allowed X boat owners to join.

I began as a rec. sailor on a Nacra 5.2 and then an 18sq. before I got tired of the dwindling open starts and bought a Hobie 17. I didn't buy a Hobie 17 because it is a great boat, I bought it because we often had fleets of ten or more 17's at Division 9 regattas. Had I been ostracized by the Hobie Fleets because of my Nacra, I could have ended up on a monohull. Had I been told to "Go buy a Hobie and we will be nice to you" I would have told them to KISS MY butt.

The question, as I see it, is which end result do you want?

Apparently I have not done a good job of explaining my position. I will try again here without calling people dumb, retarded or morons.



I am a sailor and racer that enjoys one design racing. I have raced under various handicapping systems and while it has been enjoyable, it has not been nearly as enjoyable as a one design race. The most prevalent one design racing in catamaran sailing is with NAHCA. I have been to many of these events and thoroughly enjoyed the product that they produce and the atmosphere they create. By and large, most Hobie sailors enjoy Hobie races because they enjoy one design racing. I plan on attending more of these events in the future as they are fun for myself and my friends and family.



I do not feel it is the fault of NAHCA for the decline in sailing in general and more specifically cat sailing. NAHCA has a good product and has no need to change it or incorporate other cats because there is no national organization. If there is another organization that wishes to form, I will likely attend some of these races. By and large, these will be handicapped races due to the wide range of cats sailing. It is this type of racing I do not like, thus I will attend less of these events. Do I object to another organization running multihull events?? Heck no! Go for it!



Why is NAHCA responsible for all multihulls, as you suggest? Just because NASCAR is at all time highs, do they now need to run CART and IRL and F1?? No! Does the NBA now need to run MLB? No. Just as NAHCA does not need to run all multihull events. I don't object to other cats joining in races, as long as there is someone there to score them. It is a pain to score handicapped races....I've done it before. Maybe a portion of the non-Hobie race fees should go to the race committee who scores them?? I hope this clarifies my point and I'm sorry you're so angry as to call people you don't even know derogatory names.



Kip