The Result??!!

Being one of the "few" who read P.U.'s email directly from him (as I was one of the initial who went A class) have now more opportunity to race then before.

Yes....one desing/ formula is great...it has made me (and making me) a better sailor. Do I miss some of my Hobie Friends.....? I sure do....BUT

I made a choice to give up my I-20 (a sad day indeed) and now have (as do all the other A's in the NW, under the nose of P.U.) more venues...more racing...and new friends. So to get to the point...the result up in the NW, has been positive...we have grown our A class fleet, we have grown our schedule.....

Was that not our intention to begin with.....??

Please check out our local NW A class web-site (and see first hand the group who got the infamous e-mail

www.acatsnw.com

Clear skies,

Michael

so at the expense of the Hobie fleet, the one design class has grown? I dont think that was PU's intention, but if the A's benefited and more one design racing began from the fragmented non-hobies that were out there, then great!
I only hope it did not hurt the Hobie fleet.

David
F18

And there is Canada which is completely open/formula. Any vestiges of Hobie/one design are donefor.

Then what is open ? Formula racing in itself is open class sailing,set a few parameters and bingo you've got boats with 15 years of technology or more between them on the line.Even by current standards there are consistant boat manufacturers that are winners and that being said with apparent equality of experience on the helm.Open formula serves a purpose,what is it then? And don't tell me resale of your present boat so you can go to the next popular class.You and Mary agree about the inferiority of "Handicap racing" but almost every race in Florida is handicapped and segregated by the boats measurements. I guess your formula racing needs Handicap racing to feed it.An omnipotent zero tolerance attitude towards any racing and that clubs efforts to put on the event, will squash it if there is not an inherant fleet of something to save it.Delray is an open agenda of 60 boats smack on the beach all year long. If the strongest fleets in the country are the one's with venues such as ours.What would you do in our situation starting all over with a clean slate. And again are you trying to push the F18 formula in the 1design group. And nice double Ditto Mary...

I totally disagree that F18 is related in any way to open class sailing. I haven't seen boats that are 15 years different competeting in F18 - All the 16 boats at Spring Fever were newer than 4 years and were purposely built for F18 racing. The F18 boats are built to a strict rule. You will not, however, be able to add a spinnaker and adjust the sail size on a Hobie 18 and be competitive - but we've not seen anyone attempt such a change. The Tiger and Nacra F-18 boats are terribly even in capability with neither showing a clear speed advantage in my opinion.

F18 offers sailors a spinnaker boat of a length that is manageable by most people with a power level that is manageable by most people (I'm talking male and female crews here too) that has the added bonus of putting manufacturers head to head, allowing the sailors to stick with the brand they like the most, and still be very even and competitive. I've sailed in open classes for three years and this is most certainly not one.

Mark, I think it is very relevant to the subject of this thread if one of the results of the Hobie edict has been to create more open venues where one-design racing and formula racing is allowed for all classes, as well as handicap racing.

The former Hobie policy, which allowed one open class of non-Hobies, discouraged development of non-Hobie one-design classes (at least in some areas of the country). That policy also perpetuated the myth that only Hobies race one-design and that the only way you can race one-design is by owning a Hobie.

From some of the comments in this thread, it seems that my prediction last year may be starting to come true -- that the Hobie edict might actually be a benefit to some non-Hobie classes and increase the numbers racing both one-design and formula.

Now people have more incentive to promote and develop one-design and formula classes. It is too early to tell whether there will be a strong trend in that direction and whether this will affect the sizes of the open handicap classes.

Obviously, many people just plain prefer handicap racing or else have no choice in the matter because they can't afford a different boat or don't want a different boat and/or can't get enough of their class together to race as a fleet.

All I am saying one of the secondary effects of the Hobie edict is that there are now more options available to racing sailors.

Hi Mary

Hmm.

More options available???

Not sure how you come to that conclusion. Seems to me that in prior years, clubs that could run a non hobie one design... did so! I don't know of any clubs who felt constrained by the previous Hobie rules and limited their classes in their event to one non hobie class. Do you??? The reality is that few class's could get enough turnout to warrant a one design class at most regattas. I don't think the offer of a one design class generated turnout.

For example, Spring Fever dropped in attendance once again this year. They run lots of very small one design fleets. Why hasn't the concept caught on! It’s the first well funded regatta east of the Mississippi and central to much of the region. It should have been able to maintain the 100 plus boats of a just a few years ago. They still do the same great job… Why the huge drop off in turnout?

My answer is... Its not worth a 12 hour drive to race in a 5 boat one design fleet. IMO, It would be worth a 12 hour drive to race in a 20 boat portsmouth fleet of SIMILAR boats .. if you will an ersatz formula class!... Why… because it will likely be competitive, and there for fun (no matter what my skill level is)..

The only regatta that seems to have maintained or grown in attendance is the Michigan CatFight.... IMO, The reason is large portsmouth fleets of similar boats which you can go racing against. In the end you go racing against another sailor… not another boat.. For example at the top of fleet, Matt Struble on a F18 and Robbie Daniel on a Tornado competed in the open spin fleet each winning a few races and of course they won their respective one design classes…. (PS… Nobody in the Tornado fleet was competitive with Robbie….)

As reported by many of the EU and many other places in the world sailors… they don’t hassle with lots of small one design fleets… they race everyone on texel and then split out classes and overall. Their small regattas are larger then our very best attended events…. IMO, it might have something to do with competition… and less to do with one design/formula..

So... the policy that clubs adopt with respect to how they organize the racing matters. Obviously, I think that Spring Fever gets it wrong and that is part of the reason that people don't travel to the regatta. I don’t see any evidence that the Hobie Edict has grown one design participation in the old fleets…. In fact, If you and NAHCA were serious about “one design” then you would NOT run a Hobie Open class at Hobie regattas…. Offering this kind of racing simply undercuts the one design racing in the proven strong Hobie classes. You and NAHCA should enforce the policy… 5 or more boats pre registered and pre paid or there is no regatta for you. Here’s your refund…. Please put it towards a one design race boat!

In your words..Just say no to open AND FORCE ONE DESIGN By SENDING THEM HOME
(the only plausible outcome of your "just say no mindset"!

What evidence do you have that One design racing is growing participation in the sport of cat racing and not just shuffling the players… (Eg Dave Ingram is a perfect example of a the shuffle I and MystereBob observed)

Take Care
Mark

Ditto

Mark, I have no idea whose words or ideas those are, but they sure are not mine!!

As you well know, I am in favor of total inclusion of all boats for all regattas.

Yes I know that... BUT... if you think that one design is that important... You are on board with the just say no to Open class... THEN you need to act like a one design club

If you don't have the required turnout... You loose your start and your parking spaces in the club. This kind of enforcement keeps people in the one design fleet and keeps them active. Sell your boat and purchase the one design race boat.

I don't think this works. How hard nose do you want to be with enforcing one design?

Take Care
Mark

With that question you are hijacking your own thread.

Obviously, nothing that happens within our little catamaran community brings in outside people. We just shuffle around from boat to boat, class to class.

But I do think that if we had a good variety of viable one-design classes in a lot of venues, we would be more likely to attract new sailors from the monohull ranks.

Again, Mark, why are you talking to me? Why aren't you talking to the Hobie Class?

I am all in favor of open class, one-design, formula, whatever people want to sail or race. I have no involvement with the Hobie Class.

Heck, all I said was that there are more options available to everybody now as a result of the Hobie edict than there were before. Doesn't matter a whit to me which option they want. We sail both (or is it all three) options. Whatever works for any given regatta.

Mark,

I have to jump in here and just comment on the Spring Fever turn out.

The reasons I have heard for the decrease in attendance is the lack of wind at the event. *Personally*, I've only heard one person make your complaint (above) about Spring Fever and that was you.

Tracie

Portsmouth SUX!

Perhaps I misunderstood.

You joined Dave Ingram in a support of the notion... "just say no to open class racing." I added the rest of the thought that must naturally follow from this philosophy.

Perhaps you want to modify your position on how clubs run races and balance one design and open classes. "Just say no to open" is untenable in most of the country. I know that you personally don't like open class racing. The next quesition is: How valuable is it to have a 3 or 4 boat one design fleets? Is this a winning strategy to grow clubs and participation? How do you see it working?... Where has this happened? I don't know your position here. I am guessing that you would answer YES.... they will work to get the next boat out etc etc. What support do you have for this notion... It hasn't kept the hobie classes going very well.

In the end you then wind up like the the Hobie Class Association and deliver a mixed message. If its "we are about one design racing "... then.... you should not have any handicap racing ... AND they and you should enforce the 5 boat minimum so that a one design designation means something. (That is what one design dinghy clubs do!)

If NAHCA wants to say... This association supports anything with an H... That's OK too. However... they should moderate the one design rhetoric a bit to match their mission.

I raised this issue to measure What if any negative outcomes were realized.

So far... the damage looks minimal (a bit of surprise actually). I haven't heard anyone claim.. Because of the Hobie policy... I only have 1/2 the races available to me in my region sailing my X boat.

In the end... they will net the costs and benefits and see how they do. They stated they expect to loose fleets but they viewed their actions as good for the long run.. Time will tell. They havent made a convincing case to me.

I look forward to hearing from you on how 2 3 and 4 boat one design fleets are good for the sport and the growth of cat racing.

Take Care
Mark

Ah, finally I figured out what you are talking about, Mark. I went back through this thread four times and couldn't find where Dave Ingram said "just say no to open and force one design."

Duh! It is in the subject line of his posts and in the subject line of this one, too. I NEVER look at the subject line of posts, so I'm sorry you got the wrong impression.

NO, I absolutely do not agree with that sentiment. It is ridiculous, and contrary to all my beliefs. I was just agreeing with the text in his posts.

P.S. Somebody should change the subject line back to the original. Mark?

Jake I also was taking into account everything I thought was considered a formula racing boat, Europe,Australia, wherever there is formula Racing.If its F18 were talking, then when is the last time someone on a Mystere Twister or Mattia ,Dart Hawk,Ventilo was consistantly winning enough that you sit up and take notice.These boats are now being overshadowed in there own class.And If I am wrong then I'll take a hit for it.The message I am getting is that handicapp racing is unnecessary and everyone better buy a Formula boat before its to late.Every boat out there was a formula 1design boat at one time and time put an end to that to.These days we are through a boat class faster than ever. I'd love to hear from somone that counts, thats in charge,That owns and manufactures boats on this forum, whenever this subject comes up. "D'ont sail into whale tail"...... Thanks Bob

Hijacking the thread again, but a big reason for Spring Fever fall off is the RAIN!

In Australia "open class" or racing with each different class of cat sailing with their allocated handicap/yardstick, and ALL racing against each other has always been and always will be universal. It is the most successful way of having the greatest number of cats at any given event and it is liked by all who compete on cats here. The only time that OD is raced is for class, state or national heats and even those are more often than not, raced in conjunction with, and within fleets of other classes of cats racing on yardstick at local clubs. I (and most sailors that I talk to here) just find this debate that you are having in the states completely "strange" and more than a little bemusing. Cats are cats and the more that sail together and the greater their variations, the greater the "fun" sailing against and with each other.

All I can say is up in the NW, it was easier for a one desing A class fleet to join in existing races. The local YC's, skiff fleets, sailing clubs...all were accomodating. However....almost all said "no" to any kind of handicapping, as the scoring process is delayed. Furthermore, most are advertised as a 'one design regatta'.

As far as Hobie o/d racing goes..I do have a question. It is being said that Hobie is going to produce an A cat this year. If so, does that mean that only "hobie" A's would be allowed? Clearly the A cat is not one design, so if 3 hobie sailors buy a hobie A could not other A's join them?

Probably a bit hypothetical because they have not even made the boat yet....just guessing?

Clear skies,

Michael