I am getting ready to get a Blade 16 from Matt. Can't tell you how excited I am to be getting this great boat.

I have a question, looking for some opinions on sial material. The standard sail Matt is offering is a Dacron sail and jib. For $225 more you can upgrade to the pentax sail.

I have emailed Matt about the longevity of dacron, he responded that the newer tri-radial dacron has a longevity that compares very favorably to the pentax.

If this is the case, I think I will get the dacron, as I think the look of the blue and white main he has designed is great (attatched is the file). However, I am concerned that this sail would stretch over a short period.

BTW- standard sails- blue and white main, blue jib, yellow spin.

Any opinions?

Probably most people will prefer pentex for the main; but I think dacron is best for the jib, because the softer sail is easier to "read." However, I'm not sure I would like a dark blue as the jib color. Might be harder to see the telltales.

Pentex will hold it's given shape over the life of the cloth where dacron cloth will last a long time but will allow the shape to move aft with age, becoming slower. The best combination these days is a Pentex or laminate main and a dacron jib, like Mary suggests.

Bob Curry

Pentex sails will also loose their shape with time. But they will probably be useful longer than dacron.
Pentex main with a tri-radial cut and dacron jib would be my preference. A pentex jib is possibly faster, but less forgiving.

If you want to spend the money the D4 pentex looks interesting. The problem is it costs almost what the exoctics do due to mfg process.

thom

Will share recent experiences:

1. Had a laminate Pentex/Technora blend tri-radial square top built by a reputable sailmaker for my H17. The first year it was great, second year it began to deform but still not bad, third year=slowwwwww.

I have since learned not all laminates are created equal and what is this years "hot" exotic may not last the test of time. Sorry, but the cloth companies do not give warranties or guarantee life.

Lamintes shrink over time even in storage. Dacrons stretch with use.

2. This time I selected one of the high-end Dacron weaves (Dimension-Polyant 245 square weave) for my newest sail. Verified directly with both cat manufacturers and the cloth company's to get what I wanted this time around.

It seems to be a matter of trade-offs longer life & color choices = dacron, greater high-performance stability = laminates.

You can find a wealth of good info on each of the sailcloth manufacuter's websites (both Dimension-Polyant or Contender)along with their many cloth options.

I suspect your boat builder will steer you in the right direction.

Today my rule of thumb would be, if my plan were for a lot of competitive racing I would want a laminate and plan on a new sail each 2-3 years. My choice for a new laminate would be MAXX from Contender.

If my plan were for recreational and club race sailing a good weave dacron might be just fine. Expecting 4-5 years of good sail life. My choice would be DP 245 square weave.

Anyway, one persons experiences. By the end of this race season I'll plan to post comments on the DP 245.

Sail fast, Tom G

PS. A side benefit is I now have 3 sails in my inventory to use and actually enjoy having the choices.

thanks all for the replies, it sounds as if I would be better off with a pentax main and a dacron jib.

its too bad the dacron stretches, I like the look of the blue and white main better. but....gotta be fast

thanks

Hey Gordon!! Congrats on getting the Blade, cool boat. Will you be doing any racing in Va Beach or Annapolis this year? Would like to see one of these things in person. Thanks. Ed

I am posting this at risk of being demolished by all the more knowledgeable racers. Like most, I prefer dacron for the jib. HOWEVER,I also personally like dacron for the main for the following reasons:

1. If you get a really good dacron material (as somebody recommended in one of the posts above)it is not going to stretch as in "get blown out."

2. Most catamarans, if they are sailed a lot, will gradually get heavier as the fiberglass absorbs water, so it has been my experience that as the boat gets heavier, a dacron sail will gradually get a little fuller, and the boat needs more power, so it works out pretty well.

3. With a dacron sail if the sail cut is not quite right for your weight or sailing conditions, you can do more things to modify the shape to the way you need it -- using downhaul, outhaul and shaping the battens or getting lighter or stiffer battens. Whereas, if you get one of those "hard" sails, you are kind of stuck with the shape the sailmaker cut into the sail.

3. If my sail gets wet (rain or capsize) and my telltales are plastered to the sail, I like to have a soft luff so I know if I am way off in my sheeting.

4. In other words, I like a sail that is more forgiving and more moldable.

5. I figure the "hard" sails are for the experts and the pros. Until I get to that point, I think I LEARN more from a dacron sail.

I know I am all alone on this, so I won't be insulted if you ignore this post.

If there are any dacron fans out there, please come to my rescue.

Support for Mary

While I do not agree fully with all points she mentioned I can assure her that even some good racers prefer dacron of laminate sails. They are in a minority but they are very fast just the same.

Pretty much the recurring theme has been that, like Mary says, Dacron allows you to play more with the sail; it is more mouldable. An error in a dacron sail is more easily compensated with correct trimming. By the same amount a blown out sail can be coached back by adjusting your trim accordingly. Some sailors prefer the streching of dacron (not much but a little more than laminate sails) as that makes downhaul trim etc less critical. I can understand what they mean as I need to adjust my downhaul each time I adjust my mainsheet, no matter how small the mainsheet change is. IF I don not I either see wrinkles in my sail or I'm sailing with too much downhaul tension. Some racers perfer this sensitivity. I think it is a double edged sword; it can either be advantagious or an disadvantage depending on how skilled you (your crew) are and how willing you (your crew) are to constantly adjust the trim an many controls.

Dacron definately is said to have a longer life in it than any other material. This may be different from competitive life but after some time hard sailing laminates will delaminate and/or show cracks(creases) in the sail. Dacron will stand up much better to folding and abuse and for far longer. It will stay smooth as well.

Emmanuel Boulogne (F18 world champion 2003) says on the Sailing DVD that dacron and laminates like Pentex are different, not superior or inferiour, just different. By this he is saying that he feels that both material can produce fast sails but you have to compensate for their individual characteristics by sail design and by how you trim it. When both are done right then you will end up with a competitive sail.

In summary.

Dacron : more abuse resistive, more forgiving to trim errors or sail design errors, very good lifespan (recreational)

Laminate (Pentex , mylar) : Keep designed shape very well and are more air tight; Good competitve lifespan although apparently not very much longer than high quality dacron

Mono film : is getting out of fashion. Is said to be more extreme than laminates. Very unforgiving to error, very trim sensitive and when it ruptures than it is from top to bottom.


Advice given to me : Recreational sailor to recreational racer => dacron ; top 10 racer (or top 10% in smaller fleets) => laminates

On the jib; I would say that you can choose either way. Dacron holds up very well to abuse but today with the fully battened jibs and selftackers the jibs flap about alot less and aren't folded and pulled around the pull in each tack. I have a pentex jib and it seems to hold up very well without any signs of wear. That is with the exception of where the spreader tip touches the sail but I just stitch a small reinforcing patch there and it will take a while for it to wear through and then I can replace it with a new patch.

Personally I don't know what I will order as my next set of sails. I'm definately a recreational sailor to recreational racer and probably could do better with a more forgiving sail. I think the difference can be pretty small.

Wouter

Mary,

You are not the only one to like stretch and dacron (to a certain extent) in sails.

A while ago a I posted the ideas of a Brazilian sailmaker here and his concept was that "rigid" sails are not necessarily the best solution, sometimes even for racing - depending on boat size, inventory restrictions, etc..

To the best of my knowledge, in the same sail he may use two or more different sailcloths, each stretching differently, so that the sail self-flatens when pressure increases.

Wouter, Mitch Booth's sail testing comment was even more telling on sail building reality. Out of 10 sails built and tested 1 usually improves performance, the other 9 go backwards!

Gordon, keep in mind dacron may stretch over time but it is gradual and not like a rubber band. Several posters mentioned dacron as a more tuneable sail.

Found out from one boat builder they had compared boat performance with both dacron and laminates. Some mast/hull configurations perform better with dacron.

Might be wise to know the sailcloth source and material level on the quality scale before you leap. Poor laminates do exist as do outstanding dacrons.

Sail fast, Tom G

Crewdog----I do not yet have the boat, but am within a week or so of making purchase. That said, when i do get the blade, I definately want to do some racing in both Va beach and annapolis area.

It is nice to see the support for the dacron. I have been on the fence about the sail decision, Matt did not strongly support either dacron of pentax. Dacron would save me a couple of hundred of dollars, and I would get what I think is a better looking sail. I think this is probably the best option right now. By no means do I consider myself a "competative" racer. More someone who would like to be so.

Thanks for all the advise.

Once you get your blade, make sure you post some pictures!!! I think I did capture your boat in its build process. Let me find the picture. There it is! Its the one you see in the background
http://www.sefl3s.com/robi/blade_1/blade/blade04.html

Also is it posible, that you go to the Tommy Whiteside regatta to held May 21 and 22. I am already guaranteed to go, I am going to drive over 600 miles and 12 hours to be there. It would be extremely nice if you can show up with your new boat.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

That boat may have left for Europe. I can't tell from the picture itself but there is a European customer between you and (now) Gordon. And we're looking to ship more over !

But I'm sure Matt will produce another set. And with each set he gets better at it.

Wouter

Gordon,

Congrats on your dilema....either way you go,...you will be ok!

Here is a thought, one year from now, you MAY be thinking about your next sail,......probaly buying one 2 years from now. That sail #2, will probaly be your RACE DAY sail....if so, your original sail will be your 'everyday' sail,..you know, to take your friends, family out or just to 'goof off' and have fun.

If this be the scenario, the question then is, 'As a every-day sail,which material will suit me the best?'

We have a sailor down here, his name is Doug, who sails a N5.8 with Dacron,......wins all the time......the sail is about 10 years old too( I know, I sold it to him).....do you know what a laminate looks like after 10 years in the trade winds...?

congrats again,

Bruce
St. Croix