Bump

I don't understand the poll, I don't understand the reason for the poll and I don't give any credence to any "results" of such a poll.
Just what is the point?? It seems to be such a meaningless exercise in futility.

How does the Alter Cup Committee define class?
Somehow one class, as you define them, got two spots while others got none.

One of my thoughts have been that all of the discussion of One-Design vs Portsmouth really has several other discussions buried in it. Here’s how I analyze the 9 polls.

Poll 8 – A 77% majority prefers all Hobie 16s together rather than a separate B and C fleet. Is the 23% the B & C fleeters? Or is it A fleeters that don’t want the B & C fleeters in their way? Is the majority position in the best interest of the sport?

Poll 6 & Poll 7 – It’s more important to race head-to-head on similar boats (60%) than it is to race one-design or one-manufacturer. Over 25% of the folks would opt to do both one-design and head-to-head at the regatta by running a single start and scoring it both ways. Less than 10% find brand (Nacra vs Hobie) more important than head-to-head racing. The percentages came out the same whether it was Hobie Fleets or Nacra fleets making up your one-manufacturer regatta.

Poll 5 – 90% prefer racing head-to-head over one-design if they believe the boats are adequately similar and it doubles the fleet size from 10 to 20.

Poll 4 – The respondents prefer higher tech cats over larger one-design fleets. (So do we all want one-design, but all want everyone else to switch to the boat we’re on?)

Poll 3 – The respondents prefer smaller one-design regattas to larger Portsmouth regattas

Poll 2 – Hmm, 5 to 10 regattas with 10 to 20 boats in the regatta (or start). I’m surprised that less than 10% would want 2 50 boat regattas. But then again only 2 regattas would be a bummer. No good tradeoffs here.

Poll 1 – If you have 10 regattas how would you like them? No majority, but the biggest block is one-design, followed by I don’t care lets just race, followed by I like variety, with almost nobody preferring Portsmouth only. I am in the variety camp so again I was surprised by the poll. (Don’t we all tend to not understand why everybody doesn’t think like us?)

Poll 9 – After looking at the results of Poll 3 & 2 I realized that one of my base assumptions (personal preferences) wrong (not shared by the majority of respondents). That assumption was that bigger is better. If you look at the results of Poll 9 it makes a nice bar graph. About 2/3’s of respondents prefer some type of small to medium regatta centered around 25 or so in a regatta or fleet. Only about 1/3 prefer the biggest fleet they can get.

Conclusions. (based on the poll responses, not necessarily on the larger non-responding sailing public)

1. Head-to-head racing is what’s important. It more important than brand or one-design.
2. Not everybody is looking for a really big regatta. Most people have a much smaller “ideal” size.
3. High tech will draw some of our people, either splitting up one-design classes or causing one-design class migration.
4. Brand bigotry or manufacturer loyalty is not as big an issue as many would make it. It’s less important than head-to-head, one-design, or Portsmouth.

Potential Actions:
1. Look creatively for more ways to create level (head-to-head) racing experiences.
2. Be happier with 25 boat regattas. Not everybody wants 50 and 75 boat regattas.

Bob, I can’t speak for the committee, I can only speak for myself. However, based on my participation as a member of the committee I would guess that the Alter Cup Committee would say that it, in general, defines classes as any US Sailing recognized class. (The committee is after all a committee of US Sailing).

First a little on classes in general:

The Hobie 16 Class Association, the Hobie 17 Class Association, the Hobie 20 Class Association, and the Hobie Tiger Class Association are currently all paid up US Sailing recognized one-design classes.

The International Nacra Class Association and the Inter 20 Class Association are listed as one-design class associations that have not paid their dues. There also is a “Hobie” or “Intl Hobie Class Association” that is listed as a one-design class association that has not paid it’s dues. The North America Formula 18 Class is also listed as a class which has not paid it’s dues

If you browse around the US Sailing website you can find a lot of good information.


Now a little on the Alter Cup

The Alter Cup Conditions clearly outline how competitors are selected for the event. Very few of the competitors are selected based on class criteria. The first 10 come from the area qualifiers, Portsmouth events. The HCA chair selects 2 representatives from the HCA. Two representatives from classes manufactured by Performance Catamaran are selected by Performance Catamaran. The Alter Cup Committee selects a class (doesn’t specify one-design, formula, etc..) The Olympic multihull class sends a rep.

So out of 20 teams I count 6 that are selected by class.

Now just to make sure I directly address your last point (not a question right?). You are correct in your statement assuming that you are referring to the fact that Performance selected the 1st and 3rd place finishers from the Nacra 20 class to be it’s representatives. Cool huh!

Okay, Jamie, so do I have this right?

Two of the sailors at the Alter Cup are from the same class, Nacra 20, even though it is supposed to be only one sailor representing each class as its national champion (or runnerup).

And the Nacra 20 class is not even listed in the directory of US Sailing, much less having paid dues. And even if we still think of it as the Inter 20 class, which IS listed in the directory, that class has not paid its dues, either.

And, meanwhile, two other classes that have faithfully paid their dues to US Sailing and who do hold national championships every year, are not invited to the Alter Cup. (That would be the Shark and the Wave.)

The Isotope Class, unfortunately, has not paid its dues and, even though it holds a national championship every year, is not represented at the Alter Cup.

I guess you have to be in the "In" crowd to go to the Alter Cup.

Hey Mary did you our any of those other national champs send in a petition with there sailing resume that wanted to go to the Alter Cup. The Alter Cup does not come to you unless you won an area regatta. It cost a lot to go and not every one wants to do the regatta or can because of time off work.

I think John has done a great job keeping this going at a top level. He has worked hard on this for many years to give us what we asked for. I think John is steping down after 2006 so the seat is open.

No Mary you are a little short on your counts. Lots of sailors are from the same classes.

3 of the sailors are from the Nacra 20 class
3 are from the Hobie 16 class
3 of the sailors might be from the Formula 18 class (it depends on how you want to count them.)
2 of the sailors are from the Hobie Tiger class
2 of the sailors are from the Nacra I17R class
2 of the sailors are from the A class




It is not SUPPOSED "to be only one sailor representing each class as its national champion (or runnerup). It is supposed to be what is in the Alter Cup Conditions. I did like the original format of just the 10 area champions but the present format does seem to be more successful.

The two sailors I thought Bob was referring two were not selected as members of the Nacra 20 class, they are two representatives selected from classes manufactured by Performance Catamarans.




The Alter cup is not predominantly a class oriented event. It is mostly an area champion oriented event. Anyone on a Shark, Wave, or Isotope can get into the event either by qualifying at their Area Qualifier or by petition. Additionally the Isotope class, the Wave class, and the Shark class are all candidates every year for the rotating class. (I think I might like the idea of making sure that the rotating class is a recognized, dues paying, US Sailing class if it’s not done already)




I personally don’t think there’s an “In” crowd at the Alter Cup. I think having the event on Hobie 16s last year was a great thing. I think that the event should be held on a very wide variety of boats attracting the widest possible interest. Use hi-tech boats and low-tech boats. Use double-handed and single-handed boats. I would love to see the event on 4.3s or Waves. (but I think I might be in the minority there…)



John Camera, Area A/B – Nacra 20
Nigel Pitt, Performance – Nacra 20
John Casey, Performance – Nacra 20
Jake Kohl, Area D North – Nacra F18
John Tomko, Area F – Hobie Tiger as F18
Greg Thomas, Area J - Hobie Tiger
Mike Montague, Defending – Hobie 16
Amando Noriega, Hobie – Hobie 16
Pat Porter, Area G – Hobie 16
Mathew Keenan, Area C – Nacra I17R
Bill Gillespie, Area E – Nacra I17R
Ken Marshack, Area H – A cat
Pete Melvin, Rotating Class – A cat
Jennifer Lindsay, Area D South – Taipan F16
George Pedrick, Hobie – Hobie 20
Brian Karr, Petition – N/A
Alex Shafer, Petition – N/A
Stan Schreyer, Petition – N/A
TJ Tullo, Youth - ??

Dave, I'm not a national champion -- just a lowly magazine publisher.

Based upon what Jamie said, it sounds like your class has to be a paid-up member of US Sailing in order to have your national champion participate in the Alter Cup.

If that is the case, seems like they would go down through the US Sailing directory and pick out the classes that are paid up and send them notices that their National Champion is eligible to participate in the Alter Cup.

If those classes decide they don't want to participate, THEN you go back to including more people from the classes that DO want to participate (and are paid up members of US Sailing, of course).

And then, of course, you get the debate about which of those paid-up classes should get two people instead of only one.

Jamie's reply got in there before mine, but I'm leaving mine anyway.

Right now it seems like the purpose of the Alter Cup is to include as many of the country's top sailors as possible, no matter how they have to interpret the rules to make that happen.

If that is the goal, just say so.

So your class does NOT have to be a member of US Sailing?

Did or did not the Alter Cup Committee specifically ask the Hobie Class and Performance Catamarans to designate sailors for the Alter Cup?

Yes, the Alter cup did specifically ask the HCA and Performance to designate sailors. That is how 4 of the teams were in fact selected.

Okay, so they asked the Hobie Class Association and the Nacra Class Association to designate people for the Alter Cup even though neither of those class associations is a paid-up member of US Sailing.

Did the Alter Cup Committee ask the class associations that ARE paid-up members of US Sailing?

Hey Mary, in the case of the Hobie Class Association and the Hobie Classes it is somewhat confusing. The Hobie 16 Class Association, the Hobie 17 Class Association, the Hobie 20 Class Association, and the Hobie Tiger Class Association are ALL paid up US Sailing classes. I assume that the HCA is all of those, and maybe more, and would speak for all of them. It's all part of the situation with a manufacturer-based multi-class one-design class association.

As to why none of the Performance classes are paid up, I can't say.

The Alter Cup Committee asked class associations. I don't know if paid up was one of "their" considerations in asking a rotating or Olympic class. I know that it wasn't something I previously thought to ask about myself. I also believe that it wasn't a part of asking Hobie or Performance. That said I think it's a good idea. Anbd I think that this is how we improve the Alter Cup, by talking about it and taking good ideas back to the committee.

Ever since the Alter Cup changed to the "new" format, the objective has been quite clear -- and it has also been clear that the end justifies the means.

I have read through all these posts and I can’t figure out how the Performance class gets to send two boats to the Alter Cup when they have not paid their dues. What's up with that? What a bunch of freeloaders. From the list on the US Sailing site it looks like there are plenty of classes that have joined US Sailing. Why not give those two spots to the A class? There are probably more A cats racing in the US than Inter 20s anyway.

I know that Nigel and JC sent in a petition to race and they were accepted. Did any A class sailors send in a petition? It is not all about who won what class. All the sailors in the Alter Cup have to be paid up members of US Sailing. Performance did not send or pay for any national champs to go that I know of. Nigel could have gone as area D-N for getting 2nd place since first place could not go. It ended up that Jake and Chris ended up going for getting a 3rd in area D-N.

In addition to the winners of the 10 Area Championships, the Hobie Class Association is asked to designate two representatives, Performance Catamarans is asked to designate two representatives, and another class chosen by the Alter Cup Committee is asked to send a representative. Plus, the Tornado Class is asked to send a representative.

One slot is taken by the past Alter Cup Champion. And three slots are available by petition from individual sailors.

Sometimes it is hard to understand who got there by what route, but it is all explained on the entry list at the US Sailing website, http://www.ussailing.org/championships/adult/usmhc/alter05/entries2005.htm

Dave
What does this have to do with petition spots? Acording to the list on the website it looks like Nigel and Dave got the nacra spots not the petition spots.
Two spots to a 17 boat event in a class that does not even pay its dues. That just does not sound right.

Is the Performance class even a real class run by the sailors or is it just the builder?
Who ever they are PAY YOUR DUES.

Pps

I think that if you win a national championship you can send in a petition that you want to attend and you may get to attend by either a championship or petition. You just have to show interest in going. The best way would be to win a qualifier on your choice of boat. Not all sailors want to go unless it is in your town. The cost of time off work, airfare,hotel, food, entry fee can add up to a lot of money.

Hopefully John will post on here soon and answer all your questions.

I think the Alter Cup is really doing it right. They are putting the best sailors in the country up against eachother on one-design cats. I've been to the Alter Cup 3 times and every event has been top notch. They haven't been afraid to change to make the event better through the years. This event has been the shining star in cat sailing for years. I only hope that it can continue at such a high level.

The Alter Cup has been able to attract the best cat sailors in the country for the past several years. I think that speaks volumes for the event. As an Area Represenative my job is getting easier as more clubs vie for the priviledge of holding a qualifing event.

One of the confusing points that has been brought up on this board is the fact that some sailors qualify in multiple events. Most of the sailors sail different boats throughout the year so it's hard to pin down how the sailor might have qualified.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com