What is the rule as far as nation codes go?

If I wanted to put CHI for China or even MON for Mongolia (NOT that I would put those countries on my sail) and I live and sail the boat in the US, can I do that?

In other words, can I put any nation code I choose on my sail?

I've been wondering something similar myself: If I am a citizen of country A (NZL), but buy and sail a boat in country B (USA), what is the convention for determining the nationality of the boat.

Mark.

I have always understood the sail number country code to indicate the boat's country of registration (usually the nationality of the owner/skipper).

The exception I guess would be in the case of the events where the organiser supplies the boats for the event and the skippers put their country code on the boat they are sailing.

Registration with who? A local class association? As far as F16 is concerned (since that's what you and Robi sail), who exactly is that? As far as I know there are no formal local associations for F16 (and I believe Formula boats are numbered separately within each design).

Hi Mark,
You're quite right of course. Currently in the UK at least there is very little in the way of a registration structure for F16. Wouter tells me that a formal structure will be in place soon.

I guess I was referring in general terms to the measurement/registration process administered by national sailing associations and ISAF. For example you buy a 49'er with a builders cert, get it measured, apply to your national sailing authority with those two documents and get your national sail number.
Or perhaps you buy a used Tornado from abroad (hopefully complete with documents) and you apply to your national authority and are issued with your new national sail number which you then put on your sail to replace the 'foreign' one.

Or, if you want, you talk to no-one official and you stick whatever the hell you want up there - It'd be a talking point......

Hola ! Not so fast. both nationals SAILING associations and ISAF rule on these aspects of our boats. Read the sailing instructions of nearly any catamarans event. Here you'll reference that ISAF sailing instructions **** or whatever will apply during the event. Were I sail this means that sail numbers and format need to satisfy some strickt rules on lettertype, placing and size.

It is not necessarily left to a class association to rule on these things. In the case we now give guiding lines and refer to either ISAF or local sailing associations for more details.

In F16 it is pretty much nationality of skipper/crew => nation code (as by ISAF specs) ; Sailnumber is free to choice if it has not been taken by another already. Confirmation of this is given upon registration as official F16 class members (which is free of charge in F16 class)

Wouter

I asked Lee Parks at US Sailing, and the answer is kind of complicated.

ISAF International and Recognized Classes are required to have the country code designation on the sail at all times and in all countries.

At the Olympic level the country code must be the country in which you hold citizenship. Below the Olympic level, it can be the country in which you are a resident (if you are living in a country other than where you hold citizenship and if you are representing your resident country in international events).

In practice, at least in the United States, even ISAF Class boats often do not have the country designation on their sails if they are not competing internationally.

There is no rule prohibiting non-ISAF classes (or individual sailors) from having a country code on their sails if they wish.

The country code is not related to the sail number itself. For boats with class associations, the class association of each country assigns sail numbers to boats in its country. So, for instance, you can have boats in different countries with the same sail number.

In the case of some classes, like the Laser, which is controlled by an international organization, there is only one sequence of numbers throughout the world, so every number is unique, which is why the Lasers have such long numbers. (And the Laser is also one of a few classes that are exempt from having to display the country code, despite being an ISAF class, because there simply isn’t room for it with those long numbers.)

It gets more complicated if you have dual citizenship, or are a citizen of one country and a resident of another, or if you, for instance, import a boat to the United States and it has a number that was assigned to it in a different country.

If you are living and racing in the United States and belong to the U.S. Association of your particular class, I would think you would use a sail number assigned by the class association under which you are racing. And if you use a country code, use the country code that goes with that number.

If you a citizen of New Zealand and move to the United States and bring your boat with you, it might say NZL 100 on the sail. If it is a non-ISAF class, you could just leave it as is. You would not want to remove the "NZL" and replace it with "USA," because there may already be a USA 100.

But, if you want a United States number, you should join the class association in the U.S. and ask them to assign you a new number to use here. And then if you move back to New Zealand and take your boat back with you, you could remove the U.S. number and put the "NZL 100" back on the sail.

I hope all this makes sense.

P.S. I don't know what you would do in the case of a Formula Class within which there are also individual class associations. For instance, would our Taipan 4.9 have one number as a Taipan 4.9 and another number as a Formula 16?

So in essence this is a confusing matter! oh ho.

HMMM. I know for a fact, Matts sail does not have a nation code, niether does mine. I want to put a nation code, but I want to use the Puerto Rico nation code (PUR) I do not sail in Puerto Rico, I do not live in Puerto Rico just yet. But I am Puertorrican, that lived there all of my life.

Robi, regarding how sail numbers and country codes are going to be handled for the F16, maybe it would be good to start a new thread about this on the F16 forum, because it could be a complicated matter that only really involves that class.

True, but I would not get enough coverage, or opinions. Thats my reasoning why I posted here.

I thought it was more than just a class issue.

Okay. I just figured it will be up to Wouter and the F16 Authority to figure out how these things should be handled for the F16 class, since the F16 is being organized right now on an international level and involves several different classes of boats from several different countries and continents.

Most classes do not have such a complex situation.

But, you're right. Maybe the Formula 18 Class can offer some guidance as to how they handle issues about sail numbers and country codes for the various classes of boats within the F-18 class.

I just thought it would be good to post it on the F16 forum, too.

Actually I think the issue of how you define the nationality of a boat should be more or less independent of the class. Certainly numbering is potentially a more complex issue since you can have different sequences for different reasons. I can see that that could vary a lot by class (and it has previously come up on the F16 forum). However as Wouter noted in this thread (thanks) the nationality of the boat should be governed by some fairly straightforward principles.

Yeah, I figured that the ISAF would have a straightforward rule for this, but I've been poking aroung on their website and so far haven't found anything that deals specifically with this.

It's not a biggie, but like Robi, my own situation is mainly just that I feel kind of attached to my country of origin and it would be nice to be able to reflect that.

Anyhow, I guess I should really shut up and actually get a boat before I worry about this.

Mark.

As Lee Parks explained (through me) above, ISAF only has a rule for ISAF classes, and everybody else can do whatever they want.

Robi can put "PUR" on his sail. Or he can put both "USA" and "PUR" on his sail.

If the F16 Class does not care, he can put whatever he wants on his sail.

I've been going through some of these issues for my Tornado. The boat was originally imported to the USA and so has a assigned US T. Association sail number (USA 807). When I took the boat the US Nationals last Nov., I needed to join the T. Association of my country of citizenship (Canada). The US & Canada have combined into the North American Tornado Assoc., so this wasn't a problem. But, I also had to be a member of my country's national sailing organization (CSA), so I joined as an associate member a club in Canada that I used to sail at when I lived there...

I was concerned my US sail number would be a problem at the Nationals, but the guys were not going to call me on it, so I sailed for Canada with a US sail number. I talked with the other two Canadian teams at the event about getting a proper sail number for Canada. Seems things are in a bit of disarray right now...only a few actual Tornado teams are "official" there at the moment. And no one seems to know what is the next available sail number. There was also the question of getting the boat re-certified if the country is changed. The new TA president is one of the Canadian guys I met with at the Nats, so I hope we can get this sorted out one day.

Until then, I sail with the USA 807 sail number...

Mike.

And that is just one problem involving one one-design class.

Seems like that would be compounded many times over when you have a formula class that encompasses several one-design classes built by several different manufacturers in several different countries, all of which boats are being given sail numbers from various sources.

Not to mention people moving from country to country and/or boats moving from country to country.

In the Formula 16 class is actually very straight forward :

Our begin situation is as follows :

Taipan class features sail numbers 1 to 325
Stealth class feetures sail numbers 500 to 537
Mosquito class features sail numbers 1 to 2000 (please correct me if I'm wrong)
Blade class features sail numbers 700 to 707
F16 one-off have all kinds of numbers : to name a few NED 001, NED 016, NED 006, AUS 5000, USA 176, AUS 1791 etc.

Than of course the Spitfires started at 1 and are claimed to have reached past 150.

So there was no way to get one uniform standard in this setup.

Decide was to make use of nation codes as an extra discriminator ; this would seperate the Australians Taipans from the UK and France based Spitfires and so on. Also the use of the nation code allows use to use less numbers in the sail. As a RC volunteer I always hate H16 numbers. It is bloody easy to make a mistake with those especially when a couple of them cross the line simulataniously. Also we try to line ourselfs up for ISAF recognision some further down the road.

We also declared that anybody can choose his sail number if that numbers has not been given away to a fellow nation code holder. So in the F16 class you sailnumbers is :


Your nation code (either residence or nationality of skipper)
A 3 digit number by choice

The combination Nation + number must be unique and the order of F16 membership registration determine who gets the first choice

That is all.

Wouter

Well the F16 class does care somewhat as we are lining ourselfs up for recognision down the line.

But if Robi is of Puerto Rican nationality and is resident of the USA than I don't really care what he chooses as his nation code. I draw the line when he chooses any nation code but either PUR or USA is fine.

Wouter

I refer to my other post but the setup for F16 is as follows :

3 character Nation code (Either by skipper nationality or residence)
3 digit number (by choice as long as combination "nation code + number" is unique)

I case of conflict (unlikely with this scheme) than the first to register as an official F16 member (free of charge or fees) has first choice. The runner up will have to chance his or her sailnumber. In emergency cases the second crews must add a X to their sailnumber.

Wouter

That is only seven numbers. Eventually there will be more than seven of us. This can be a problem Or maybe a typo of yours?

I am sure I will add the PUR to my mainsail eventually. I just want to make sure, I will be class legal.