Works for me. Sorry, I tried to attach it here for you, but seems it won't accept .pdf files.

Mark.

Sarah,

the second link is to a PDF, your PC may not be able to read it direct, do a goodle on "Adobe PDF reader" and I'm sure you will find a link to a download.

Wouter



Urm, under SCHRS these boats ahve the following handicaps :

Inter 17 with kite (as sailed 99% of the time) - 107
Hobie 18 - 104
Hobie 16 - 116
Prindle 16 - 119
Prindle 18 - 110

Are you really saying that you have a spread of 15 points (nearly 15%) on your handicap fleet - If we did this in the UK there would be uproar !!!!!!

Our handicap spreads are usually :
<108
108-118
118 +

This really surprises me !

Yep, we F17 sailors are definitely enjoying our present rating..............

Tom

It doesn't ?

I checked again on another PC (at work) and it loads again. It is a link to a PDF-file (So you must have a PDF-reader properly installed on your PC).

Let me see if I can find a pure HTML link

http://www.watersportverbond.nl/content.asp?me_id=468%20

This is the welcomes page. At the top you can find some links to PDF and zip files that will show you the Texel rating numbers.

However best way is to find a free PDF reader and open the orginal link with that. Actually I have a link for that :

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

This is the first page to downloading a free acrobat PDF reader application.

Otherwise here is a summary :

All ratings presented in this post are Texel ratings for singlehanded sailing with spi (if the class allows one). First number is for light winds and the second is for heavy winds. The lower the number the faster the boat. The first rating is of a doublehanded Formula 18 boat, to give you an idea of where to put the singlehanders ratings.

They are ordered from slow to fast (except for the Formula 18 rating that is on top for reference);

Formula 18 (doublehanded with spi) ; 102 / 102

nacra inter 17 ;________110 / 112 (+spi)
shadow ;_____________107 / 111 (+spi)
nacra inter17 XL ;______106 / 110 (+spi, same as I-17 with a 1.5 sq. mtr. bigger mainsail)
hobie FX one :_________105 / 108 (+ spi)
Nacra 18m2 :__________103 / 106 (! No spi !)
nacra inter 17R :_______102 / 106 (+spi) Now also know under the name nacra F17.
Taipan 4.9 with spi :____101 / 105 (= standard Taipan 4.9 with spi, but no other F16 mods, this is grandfathered into F16)
Formula 16 :__________100 / 104 (= Taipan F16 (modified 4.9), Stealth F16 and Blade F16)
a-cat :_______________99 / 104 (No spi)
Marstrom M18 :________91 / 97 (= a modified A-cat with wider beam and more sail area and a spinnaker as well)


Here you see how the mods have affected the I-17 design. US guys are talking about the I17R (or nacra F17) design which is arguably alot more in the front of the fleet. Europeans and such are more familiar with the other versions of this design, the plain I-17 one and the XL version. 1 point rating difference under texel equals 36 second per hour of bouy racing. So when a design goes down from 110 to 102 then that equals becoming 8 * 36 = 4 min and 48 sec = about 5 minutes per hour of bouy racing faster.

The Marstom M18 is lonely at the very top speedwise but it is also very rare. If money is no problem than that is the most sexy boat to own. Only 78 kg's all carbon and a dream to right. The next best things are obvious.

I believe the links to the other rating systems worked.

It see it has stopped raining so I can go out. Good luck and I hope this info helps

Wouter

Thank you sooo much Wouter

Marstrom M18? hrm it looks really attractive to me. But will it be able to handle a second person on board? and does the extra speed and spi mean that its going to be too hard to handle?

The fact that its weight is only 80 kg is a huge benefit in terms of being able to right the cat, which is a pretty big issue for me.

I do beleive the M18 is a two person boat.

Marstroms in my opinion are Ferraris of beach cats.

Marstrom M18

Go to :

http://www.sailcenter.se/administration/Boats/m18/index.asp

First of all. This boat will make you the envy of the beach; that is when alot of techies are around. It is 99 % made of carbon fibre and Marstrom likes to make things in the most high tech way. A glaring downside of this extremely "high quality or bust" mentality is the proportional price tag. Think "about twice as expensive as the competition".

Will it handle a second person on board ? Well if any A-cat boat can take a second person and do it with flying colours then the Marstrom product is it. Some sailors tried to convert this singlehanded boat into a F18HT doublehander and raced it as such for a week. It held up fine. I would't advice anybody to try this on any other A-cat boat. If taking somebody along is important to you than you must look at the Marstrom products or at the classes that are designed to take crews. (Inter-17, FX-one, Formula 16's (+Taipans), Spitfire) I'm not at all sure if the Shadow would be happy with a second person on board. I wouldn't advice any non Marstrom A-cat for doublehanded use. Afterall 75 kg all-up doesn't give a designer much material to make a boat strong and durable. One really needs an excellent and state-of-the-art production proces to get it as such despite the low overall weight.





What is "too hard". Too hard for one person can be like "a walk in the park" for another. Only you yourself can decide what is too hard for you. I can't tell you that. Does high speed and the spinnaker make the sailing more sportive and require higher levels of attentions and concentration ?

Yes.

But the reward is more fun and and a more potent sense of achievement.

The boats you are looking at are all fast singlehanders that can overpower you when your sailing skills are insufficient. Still, we must take care to note overstate this fact. We must not fool ourselfs that an old Hobie 14 or say an Nacra 5.5 uni are much different. Any cat can overpower its crew when such a crew is caught in conditions outside of the skill level. But it is indeed true that higher speeds make things like bouy roundings and boat crossings harder and more critical. Instead of approaching eachother on a intercept course at 12 knots of speed , you'll be doing the same thing at 18 knots of speed, an increase of 50 %.

The spi is both easy and hard. It is easy in the lighter stuff and great fun, but in the stronger winds your sailing skills will be tested harder. But then again, you can always decide NOT to pull the spi. In April during races I first decided to not pull it, because I felt unsecure in the large racing fleet (60+ boats, at the crowded marks and at the strong conditions (15 knots of wind). Later in the day when the wind calmed and I was at the back of the fleet because I had made a mistake I did pull it. Think of it in this way. If you have it on board you can pull it or not pull it. When you don't have it on board then you don't even have that choice. And believe me, spinnaker sailing on a cat is great fun. Pulling a spi asnd powering up downwind in 5-8 knots is just bliss.





If righting is a important point for you than your choice of boats narrows down very quickly. You should be able to right A-cats and M18's without much effort at your 70 kg. So these are at the top of the board in this respect. Formula 16's, (only) Inter-17R and shadow are next on the list. The plain I-17, Spitfire and FX-one finish the listing.

Take note that A-cat/M18 mast sections (carbon fibre) weight as little as 8 to 9 kg. Complete mast setups on A's are about 1 to 1.5 kg heavier => 9 to 10.5 kg.

Formula 16 masts (8.5 mtr) sections weight about 10.5 kgs (carbon fibre) to 13.5 to 14.5 kg (aluminium). The fittings are heavier on these boats as they take much higher loads and have more fittigns thus making complete masts about 13 kg for carbon and 16-17 kg for aluminium.

The builders of the shadow catamaran claim that their bare aluminium mast section of 8 mtrs. weights only 9.5 kg (without fittings). That is quite light especially considering that the wall thickness and way of reinforcing the mast is the same as of the alu F16 masts that are 13.5 to 14.5 kg. I have a hard time seeing how they can save 4 to 5 kg just like that. But for the sake of the argument lets assume that their mast weights in at 13 kg overall = same as carbon F16 mast.

I know the FX-one mast when fully fitted weights in at 20 kg's. The inter 17 mast (not I-17R version) I expect to be in the same weight range.

The weight of the hulls and such will factor into the ease of rigting as well but this is hard to quantify. So lets stay with looking at the masts only.

Lets assume that a 85 kg sailor can just right the FX-one/I-17 boats. Than 70 to 73 kg sailor can right an alu masted F16, a 60-65 kg sailor can right the shadow and carbon masted F16's, and a 50 kg sailor can right an A-cat/M18. Move the initial weight of the 85 kg sailor on the FX-one/I-17 up or down the other numbers will follow the swing.

I don't know what the weight is of the I-17R carbon mast so I have to guess at righting that. I would guess at 65 kg to 70 kg righting. From rumours I have it that the carbon I-17R mast is not particulary light. I admit the comment came from a Taipan sailor who said to me that his alu Taipan mast felt lighter than the Carbon I-17R of a befriended sailor when lifting it.

I hope this data helps you. In your case I would look for boats with light carbon masts (A-cat / M18 / F16's) and the very lightest of the aluminium masts (only Shadow and Formula 16's). I underline that not all carbon masts are lightweight and that I know of ONLY two alumimium masts (on these boats) that are below 20 kg when fully fitted. I have no dependable data on the Nacra I-17R carbon mast so I don't know where to place it but I expect it to be comparable to the lightest alu masts.

I hope this helps

Wouter

Wouter

The M18 is a single handed boat and a wonder boat at that.

78 kg, 15sq M mainsail and 15 sq m Kite. The boat will rate somewhere around 0.9 on SCHRS - Tornado is 0.94 to give some idea of the potential speed of the M18 !!!!!!

If money were no object, then an M18 would be my next boat, however the price is looking at coming in at around 23500 Euro plus sails (last time I spoke to Goran Marstrom). Which is a lot of money, too much for me.

When I spoke to Goran he was very busy (had a few Carbon Tornado masts in production !), I'd expect he is a little less busy now and might have more time to discuss it.

I have a Marstrom A-Class. It has the same hulls as a M18. There should be no problem with a second person. The Marstrom hulls are big compared to other A's.

The Marstrom A-Class performs well with 110 Kg men with a reputation for breaking boats(http://www.marstrom.com/images/Batar/AClass/0332.jpg). As long as you keep the combined skipper and crew weight to ~150Kg you should not have any trouble.

If you get an M18, you need to tell Goran Marstrom how you will be sailing or racing it most of the time. If you will be racing as a 2 person boat they can make the mast stiffer. If you are going to be sailing or racing mostly solo, the more flexible mast depowers better.

You seem to favor spinnaker boats but the uni-rigs are a lot easier to sail solo and they are plenty fast enough to scare you On a Marstrom A-Class you will be trapping at 9-10Kts and fully powered up (Wild Thing'ing downwind) at 13 kts. Sailed by someone who knows what they are doing, the A's will stay up with or ahead of the 20ft spinnaker boats. The wider M18 will be a little more forgiving.


For a spinnaker boat the M18 would be a good choice.

The only problems I know of are:

No mast step ( I am working on that)

The boats can get scary on a reach, when the wind is over 15 kts. They don't go any faster, the bow just goes deeper.

If you need anything else let me know.

Carl

thanx Carl,

Truth is Im quite dissapointed .... I called the Marstrom company and told them that I was thinking about buying an M18. I even sent them an email. I must have called them at least 5 times but every single time it was always the same thing ... I get put on hold for a long time then they tell me to call another day. They said that someone would get back to me but its been over a week now any I haven't gotten a reply.

I had this problem when I was investigating an M18.

It might be better to wait 3 weeks and then the Tornado Worlds will be over, might be less busy once they are finished.

But this really makes me reconsider getting a Marstrom. I mean if its always like this then does that mean that if I do get an M18 and I need spare parts then it would take me weeks to get the parts I need?

Besides, with the prices they charge they should have better customer support.

Oh and does anyone know where I can get parts to customize a Marstrom M18? like better and colorful sails .. or spinnakers and such.

And why is it so hard to find pictures of the M18?

Hi Sarah,

Here is a link to a page with some shots of the M18:

M18

I think your expectations for Hobie style (& scale) support from the highly specialized, smaller scale Marstrom company is a bit unrealistic. The number of people working at Marstom must be no more than 20-30 tops, but may be more like 5 or 6. The people working there are very likely to be highly motivated catamaran racers and so will be "distracted" when major events are going on...like the Tornado World Championships. Remember it is now spring there in Sweden and everyone is anxious to get back on the water (yes, it's a BIG deal when you've been hibernating for many months in the cold ).

Sometimes places like Marstrom don't do the "business management" particularly well...they are usually engineering type people with different priorities (like designing/building the most advanced production beach catamarans on the market). There are other small companies around that act as dealers/distributors for Marstrom products. Here in the USA, there's a place in Florida called "Fun in the Sun" run by Jill Nickersen that imports/distributes Marstrom products (Tornado's mainly, but I'm sure she's also done a few M20's and could do the M18). Not sure if there is a similar arrangement somewhere on your side of the world. But I do know of a few places in Europe that distribute Marstrom products. You might have better "customer support" contacting them for your M18 questions:

Landenberger Sailing ---located in Germany; send him and email about his Marstrom distribution...he also is a sail maker and can fit you with custom sails.

Cat Sailing Sportswear & Equipement ---another German site that sells Marstrom stuff. I have ordered Tornado parts from them. They do not specifically list the M18 but I'm sure they can hook you up if you ask about it.

Good luck!

Mike.

Sarah,
There's M18 pictures on Håkan Fröjdh's website. Click on the M18, Data and Pictures link.

The address is http://user.tninet.se/~zdt420t/index.htm

e

why would you want to "customize" the M18? For the price they charge for it, it'd better come damn near perfect as far as rigging is concerned. As far as the sail colors are concerned, stick to smoke and white. Classy, and sharp looking.

Wouter, found your mast weight comparison interesting.

"If righting is a important point for you than your choice of boats narrows down very quickly. You should be able to right A-cats and M18's without much effort at your 70 kg.

I`m at 70kg myself, my mast is 9,5kg (bare section), probably close to 14kg fully fitted, similar to Shadow, BUT it is 700mm shorter at 7,3m. This makes the righting moment better for a 70kg crew. I can right my boat solo in all conditions, but I`ve had to stand right on the tips of my daggerboards on some occasions, so I seriously doubt Sarah will be able to right a boat with the same mast weight but 1,2m longer as the righting moment changes with longer mast.
Of course that`s my personal observation, and my technique may not be the best (though I`ve refined it from years of capsizing often - I think 4 in one race qualifies me as experienced )
Perhaps she should be looking at a smaller, lighter boat like the Shadow, has a very good rating for it`s size and she should be able to right it alone.

Sarah, not trying to put you off a 17fter, just need to know that when sailing it alone you might want to keep the rescue boat within reach - 2up you won`t have trouble righting, just when alone. A bit frustrating when racing to always need outside assistance from a capsize, as you`re then dsq`ed from that race. You will just have to refine your sailing technique so that you don`t capsize often, or sail with crew.
Good luck on your choice.

Steve

Hi Sarah,

I'm now sailing single handed cats for 3 years. I started off with an FX-One and even sailed an Inter 17 for 1 year.
I learned that you shouldn't bother about all the technical details when you're still learning. You're not going to notice the difference between a 140 kg boat and a 130 kilo boat.

Both FX-one and Inter 17 have their specific pro's and con's.
The FX-one is very fast boat on easy water (small waves).
When you're sailing with bigger waves the trim of the boat (horizontal) becomes very important. The shape of the hulls will cause the boat to bounce more than an Inter 17.
The hulls are also more subject to damage when transporting as I experienced last year. Plain sand is ok.

The Inter 17 is much more robust. And can be fast too. More versatile. But rarely seen nowadays.

If you're sailing in Europe you'll see a big special competition for the FX-One ! Mary has a point, if you want to race, choose the boat most other people are sailing too.

For both boats the support is ok, parts and knowledge are plenty available. Both boats sail excellent with jib and spinaker kit. The Inter 17 imho is a little bit more suited for sailing with 2 persons.

Well, that's a big different with the higtech Carbonfibre boats like the M18 and the A-cat. As far as I know Carbon cannot be repaired.

I'd go for the FX-One.

If you're going for the max. Try sailing the Eagle 18HT Carbon.

Wish you all the best !

Maarten

Pardon !

Where are you based ? UK there are about 5 17's, There are a fair few in Holland too (not sure how many).

There are a large number in the USA.