- understand there will be diverse opion and comment on boat -class preferences for this distance ocean racing event which is extensively covered by the media here on Catsailor ,-and will be on OLN t v in June ,-along with the always excellent race film by Robert and Jeanie ,-plus numerous sailing publications and web sites.

Currently the thinking as noted is towards a return to an Inter 20 event as per earlier 1000 mile races ,with perhaps an added Formula 18 class category .

Several teams that race both F-18S and I-20s stated their preference for 20 LENGTH in this predominently downwind race in ocean conditions and seas, -- no F-18S showed this year though would like to see a F-18 class scored and started seperately .

To increase potential partisipation and teams entering the event from different classes and brand categories some favor a Formula 20 rule be used for the 06 TYBEE 500.
Forumla 20 rules are on the F-20 FORUM -http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Formula20
based on I-20 basic specifications with matching sail pattern rules so the only major difference would be hull shape as per F-18 .
This would encourage entrants from various class types and offer the oportunity to modify their boat for ocean racing as listed here http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1
plus potentially several others requiring modification to F-20 compliant specifications.

An added class and or alternative that would also require a seperate start and should be scored on a first across the line wins basis would be an open class ,--again started and scored seperately at a latter time off the beach.
Where to draw the line in length limit in the open class is a matter for discussion , In open racing at numerous events the winning boat type has varied . The Tornado -Marstrom 20 ,-CFR 20 -SC 20 -and others have won line honors in distance races in recent years .Perhaps this is the basis for an open class category for the 06 TYBEE 500 .

Either the F-20 or the open class senario would interest this racing sailor enough to show on the starting line again in 06. Having definative classes and boats defined allows teams to begin training and planning this season along with CREW -team members and obtaining potential team sponsors that include budgetary outlines for these boats and teams.

Any racing sailor or team potentially interested in racing the TYBEE 500 should let their boat-class preferences be known ,-please post .

thanks
Carl

Carl,
Are you involved with running the Tybee 500 or Outer Banks 500 in any way?
Do you have any official position with the Tybee 500 or Outer Banks 500?

offtopic
Samevans I sent you a private message.

Carl, you already know my view on this, but for people who weren't following the earlier discussion on the F20 forum, may I try to frame your final question in a way that gets at what seems to me to be the critical issues...


1. If you (anyone) have contemplated racing the Tybee in a one-design class on an assumption that you would have enough competitors for separate class scoring (and based on recent history, I think that effectively means I-20), would you be happy to race instead as an F-20, i.e. compete first-to-finish against any boat (I-20 or not) that satisfies the rule that Carl has proposed (and which is designed to reflect the design parameters of the I-20).

2. If you have contemplated racing the Tybee in a boat that would likely not have enough competitors for a one design start (and so would otherwise have to sail open class) but would satisfy Carl's proposed rule, would you be happy to race on a pure first-to-finish basis against any other boat that satisfies that rule, including, for example, I-20 (i.e. would you race F-20 and not open class).

3. If you have contemplated racing the Tybee in open class (regardless of whether or not you would satisfy the proposed rule), how many competitors would you consider necessary for it to be worth your while?


Whether there is enough readership here to actually reach significant conclusions on the issues above I'm not sure, but these represent what I think are the main questions that bear on the viability of F-20 racing in the Tybee.

(Disclaimer: In case it's of interest to Sam or anyone else, I am not in any way connected with any aspect of the Tybee 500, beyond being an interested observer.)

Mark.

(still an F16 devotee; just think the prospect of another formula class is interesting)

I reckon I would be interested in bringing the super Taipan to the race, would be perfect for the boat. Any idea on the ground crew support required?

Ground crew? You need at least two ground crew persons. We've had motorhomes and we've had hotel rooms - Personally, I prefer the hotel rooms most of the time. There was a stop or two that didn't have balconies which was a pain the butt because that meant we had to hang our stinky, moist, and salty gear inside the hotel rooms. The ground crew prefers hotel rooms because getting from point A to point B is easier in cars and parking, once you get there, is much easier to come by. Ideally, you want a passanger van (big enough to carry the whole team) and/or a small pickup truck with enclosed storage in the back. We take a lot of spare parts (rudders, boards, sails, etc.) and tools too. Once you figure in all the associated fuel costs of running an RV, the hotel rooms come out only slightly more expensive (depends on how you are stacking up sleeping arrangements).

As it relates to the questions Carl posed and Mark's rephrasing - it is an interesting question to ponder.

A point that was made at the end of the race by race organizer, Chuck B., was that he has opened up the race to the "open" class but they haven't shown up. While I think in some regards that might be true, this past year didn't give them much of a chance. We were supposed to see two Tornados in this years event but I know that at least one of them pulled out because the northern leg (where their sponsor was located) was cancelled and they lost their sponsorship. Last year, several 6.0's and I20s showed up in force - but honestly, I think that good showing put a nail in the coffin of the 6.0 class....we had some of the best 6.0 sailors in the country competing and I think they left the event wondering why they weren't sailing I20s because most of them own one now. The 6.0 is a good boat and can keep up or sometimes outperform the I20 when the wind angle and sea state are right for it's narrower hull shape and large jib. However, the I20 hulls and sail plan are significantly better optomimized for offshore racing.

As it stands now, to open up the race to a non-existant F20 class is to ask for custom built boats since there are no other F20 platforms. However, for people to make that kind of time and money investment the race will need to prove to be here to stay (which includes consistent attendance and early planning) and have a succesful open class for several years.

Looking back, we saw the Worrell migrate from sorta-one design, to a very open rule, and back to a very strict one design (that, IMHO, could have been very succesfull - they got a bunch of teams to put up a $5000 entry fee!). Personally, I think this one design is evolution of our sport and a strong one design showing will bring more prestige to the event. The more I race, whether it's around the cans or up the coast, the more I see things the way David Ingram does (should somebody just shoot me now?). I'm not opposed to you guys having an open class, and I'm going to reserve the right to change my mind when I'm rich, don't have to work, and can afford to build a one-off monster...but I would rather keep the competition on the water than in the garage. For me now, I prefer to loose to a better sailor - not a better boat and really like the one design format.

Perhaps the open invitation should stay - if they don't show up again, so what? Who loses? I do think that if three Tornados show up and their crews are consistantly sitting on shore already showered and dressed when the I20 fleet comes in, you'll quickly see more and more Tornados because they're readily available (much like what happened to the Inter20s). If someone builds a viable F20 and races in open class and has success, I think you'll see more of those show up. If someone builds a one-off monster and is successful, you will see more of those (albeit more slowly because of the additional time and resource involved to build). It's going to take two or three pioneers to create a movement away from the current course of the race but while I'm not opposed to having an open class in the race, I don't care to race in it.

Hi Jake
It was great racing with you ,-hope you have enjoyed the TYBEE 500 pics and Roxy,s photos especially, as much as I have ,-be sure if you are a part of any team to check out Roxy,s site,-click on galleries --then tybee 500
http://www.shotbyroxy.com/

Have had an ongoing conversation with TYBEE 500 organizer-s who have basically stated to please go ahead and encourage constructive diologue on this subject .They would of course like to accomodate the preferences of racing teams .

The 20 foot category platforms available along with parts etc are numerous and can be purchased used for very little . listed here -http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=Formula20&Number=49650&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

I don,t believe any custom building is required ,-and rules are tight enough with matching specifications and matching sail outline patterns that no advantage would be gained by not using an existing boat or at least basic platform with new matching sail plan if prefered.

For example -if the Formula 20 rule is in effect, with my heavier 400 LB crew weight I might opt for more of a narrower displ.type hull rather than Inter type wide flatter semi-planning type hull . I might take a NACRA 6/0 or evan SC or ARC 20 type hulls boards larger rudders and place the matching Inter mast rig and sails on it.
Any 20 could be modified to match the current I-20 specifications and sail patterns to comply with the F-20 rule ,-The HOBIE FOX could be upgraded and lightened ,-the Hobie 20 could be modified and raced successfully as the younger Aussie team proved in the 98 W-1000 race ,-a team could take Tornado hulls and modify to an 8.5 beam -385 LB weight ,with matching sail plan to make a F-20 compliant cat, numerous possible existing options are available from numerous brand types classes and potentially larger pool of racing teams .
What you would see is teams modifying boats of choise to their preferences including reef systems and other ocean racing safety modifications as well as support and interest from other numerous boat mfg and dealerships.

The Formula 20 rule adds a much larger potential pool of boats and racing teams and allows them options for ocean racing .
Some have done the Atlantic coastal races 5 or 6 times on I-20s now ,----

The other class that interests is an open class category ,-if I knew several teams were racing a particular type of cat or group of similar lighter-weight larger beam cats I would purchase one now and race and tune it this season with the 06 TYBEE 500 and Atlantic 1000 in mind . The Tornado seems a match for the Marstom and CFR 20 types ,-perhaps getting commitments from 5 to 10 teams in this category would be fun .
--The open class ,--and this is important --requires a latter seperate start off the beach with seperate first across the line wins scoring ,-and should not interfere with other class racing .

Either class would be fine with me ,but would like to have some idea of which direction to go with a boat selection and crew training , so the need for constructive diologue and hearing from other potential interested teams.

Carl

I think there is room for a development or formula class on a race with the rigors and prestige of T-500 / A-1000, but I think the original idea was to put together an intense distance race that is still affordable to the up-and-coming sailing teams. With all of the ancillary costs, the format of the race at present is pushing the bugetary (and time) limits of most working stiffs.

I like the one design for the same reasons that Dave and Jake mentioned. But every great one design had to start somewhere (in an open or development class). I'll leave that to the cash heavy teams. As you said, Jake, I'd like to win on the course, not in the garage.

That being said, and figuring there will be growth in the development/open class next year, would you still bring your I-20, or would you buy an M-20? If you were a 6.0 sailor, would you move to an I-20 or another open class boat (M-20, T, etc.)?

Hey Carl - it was a great week indeed!

While I think most of us agree on 80% of this issue - the remainder can be explained by looking at our physical attributes. At just under 5'8" (this is the ONE time that is an advantage!) I can get my body weight to a little less than 1/2 of the minimum crew weight of an I20 and still have plenty of physical fitness to fullfill the requirements of the boat. Jay is pretty much the same. Because we can both get to minimum weight, we are both pretty satisfied to sail in the strict OD I20 fleet. Carl, although in better trim than I, is considerably more than 6' in height so for him to find a way to reach minimum weight for the existing I20 or N6.0 is much more difficult. The I20 handles heavy teams much better than most other platforms but it still makes a pretty big difference carrying an additional 10% full-up weight than everyone else.

So how can the bigger guys find a way to be more competitive? The Formula is the answer where the platforms are flexible enough that the bigger guys can have custom sails and/or masts made to help offset the additional weight (much like the A-class guys do).

I'm all for an open fleet in the Tybee - why wouldn't you include them? What do we lose if they continue to allow an open fleet? (nothing). I would however like to see the opens and each class have their own start in the future to promote both kinds of racing. Then the race can let evolution take over and see which class develops better numbers over time. I predict we will see the boat that offers the best combinationof speed and affordability continue to grow in numbers in this kind of racing. For now, the I20 has fit that bill very well.

I do not believe many teams - especially those that are up front, will subscribe quickly to the Formula 20 concept and simply consider their I20 platform now Formula 20. It will take a new breed(s) of boat that is as faster or faster and as affordable or more affordable to convince these guys to change. The F18 class was unique in that there was not a popular/affordable 18' spinnaker equipped boat in the market and it found this niche and defined a platform that could be very competitive, faster, affordable, and useable by people with varying physical attributes. There is already a couple popular 20' spinnaker equiped platforms which makes the assembly of a Formula class around this a more complicated task.

Let me preface this with the fact that I like One-design/F18 racing.

I believe the F20 rules as proposed by Carl are too open and leave room for a one-off boat to be significantly faster on certain points of sail.

I believe the Worrell and the Tybee 500 were at their biggest and best when they went one-design. Whenever the competitions were opened up I think attendance has suffered.

I believe you will never attract international teams unless you pick a one-design class. By picking a one-design class international teams can buy or lease a boat for the race much easier.

I think you have two classes that could be picked to run next year being an I20 or an F18. I don't think anyone is interested in finishing last so if you run these together people will race the I20.

I think if a Tornado would have run the event this year it would have won the event hands down. The beam is simply too valuable to ignore. By having a mixed crowd I believe it detracts from the event.

In my opinion, after having run the race this year, I believe it should be on a one-design or F18 boat in the future. I mean I could have brought my Tiger and raced this event this year but that would have really been a bad experience. Instead I bought an I20 to race with and had fun.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

I think that it _can_ be a successful open or F20 event. Look at the Texel race.. They have all types of boats. You could have an overall line honours winner and then break it out into different fleets f20, I20, f18 whatever..

I stated previously that I don't think that F20 will fly unless one (more) or more manufacturers start building to the spec. Right now we have an F20 fleet with 1 manufacturer. I don't think that retrofitting boats to the spec is going to go anywhere...Why do that when they can just buy an I20?

First of all sitting on the sidelines this year was a real bummer, but I wouldnt have done this race on my F18, no way, its just not the boat to take up the coast. I know the old guys will say we used to do it on a H16, but those days are over if you want to finish before dinner time. The I20 is THE boat for this race, its proved its might, and I dont believe an average or even above average team on a Tornado would beat JC or Rick Bliss, Ive sailed against them and the are the shiznit when it comes to this race and making the I20 perform.
I love the F18, but its no I20.
I love the SC 20, but its not durable enough for 6 days of this.
I love the Marstrom and the CFR, but I think it will self destruct in a big blow.
What does that leave? The 6.0 and the I20, proven boats.

Hi Mike

Matching the current model US version I-20 specifications in F-20 limits all to equal basic design features just as F-18 accomplishes .
A preface favoring one should not exclude the other if intent is the same.

To close the "open" imaginary one of boat fears, an existing factory boat list could be added eliminating one of specially custom built cats.
The list of existing factory 20s currently available can be found here -all may undergo modification per F-20 rules and max specs .
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

Just as F-18 racing includes Hobie Tigers -Nacra F-18S -Mysteres etc -
F-20s are to include conforming makes and conforming modified versions of existing factory 20 ft cats in order to get started having the existing condition of US version Inter 20 being BUILT PER PERFORMANCE CATS lighter and having more sail area than existing EU F-20 cats specifically the F-20 Storm -Ventilo and Hobie Fox plus EU version Inter 20 ,and also existing 20s in the US .

It has to begin with racing sailors here , not necessarily Hobie EU or Perf cats.

The alternative as noted is to let them go the way of so many previous dead boat classes and get on to the lighter weight larger beam version 20s already available ,currently in a potential open category for the 06 Tybee 500 ,POSSIBLY A ht Formula 20 class in the future .
Either is fine .
happy sailing
Carl

How might the ARC 21 fit into this picture?

My two cents worth:

The driving force in the EU behind the growth of the F18 class was buoy racing not distance racing. The number of dedicated buoy cat racers is much larger then distance racers. (This past weekend at least three events drew 40 + boats each)… You need this circuit FIRST and FORMOST

The essential stats of the F18 class are relatively high and fixed min boat weight, max stick height and max beam. The large market of dedicated buoy racers continues to draw new designers and builders and existing builders to continuously fine tune their designs for small performance gains within easy to meet construction standards. BUT it’s the market of buoy racers that makes all of this happen.

What is the market for the 20 footers?
Factors that impact on its popularity and limit it are:
1) A 20 foot sail plan by its nature requires a stronger team to manage..... eg smaller market.
2) Handles physically large teams well.... = small market (BUT this market has no place else to go!)
3) Effective use of the sail power argues for a wider beam which makes it less user friendly for weekend events.... eg. smaller market yet again.
4) Light weight = joy to sail= acceleration, fun factor etc etc. ... Standard weight is not much of difference from F18's. But light weight will cost a noticeable amount more and the result is likely to be a smaller market.

As Mark has pointed out, the I20 owns the 20 foot market in North America now AND IT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE GROWING (me)! The Fox, Miracle (H20), Mystere 6.0 Nacra 6.0, ARC, Taipan, Hurricane designs have not caught on in any big way or have peaked years ago (sloop rigs) and may not be in production. (The Tornado doesn't fit the basic rule.)

Why would you, a builder, commission a NEW design to compete using the I20 parameter set if you think the market is really small and limited in its appeal ???

Seems to me that a F20 rule that sets a min boat weight at about the I20, with a stick height = to the I20 with a 8'6" beam will not draw new builders... it may convince someone with lots of cash to experiment with one of the other designs.... but if the race costs you about 5 to 10 K in operating costs...and a new or used I20 is 15K..... Why do the engineering (unless that's your thing)?

I would declare the class as F20.... spec it out within this I20 parameter space... and go racing... You MIGHT get one or two teams that want to play with something other then an I20. Perhaps a carbon tornado rig on one of the aforementioned 8'6 platforms that all up weighs in at 420 lbs. Don't be surprised if no one else comes to play… PS…no matter what… measure the sails and let sailmakers build sails for teams even if it’s all I20’s..


What is really needed is a HT Formula rule which raises the performance bar, produces a great light weight, high performance boats! The M20 exists, the Super Taipan 5.7 has been built.. see (MACCA posts)... Ventilo probably has their 20 footer in production, Eagle has a 20 footer available…. The Blade 20 is rumored!

What is essential here is that the rule have buy in from existing builders or potentially interested builders AND most importantly a circuit of high profile buoy or match races which fills the demand for tactical high speed racing... plus the standard high profile distance races (raids as the French call them) be established and have the commitment of 5 to 10 teams to get things going.

What’s the market?. Big teams, (Small teams can play because you always can scale down the power) Teams that want to push the design envelope. Teams that want the BEST Performance, the Top sailors who want to compete against the best on the best and anyone who values performance.

(Perhaps the physics of boat design automatically constrains what 2 humans can manage and you don't need much of a rule beyond 2 people but that is a different thread and I don’t know enough about it to lead a discussion)

In the end... you need high profile events... high profile sailors and great HT 20 footers to get this new Formula class to fly. If it ever does take off.... the venerable Olympic Tornado should be replaced with one of the top HT 20's whose builder agreed to the ISAF rule set... (eg. virtually one design)… It would still be able to play in this new formula class for quite some time.

Personally, I see the practical near term financially sane solution is my ersatz 20 class... Tornado's, I20's and any other 400+ lb 19 to 20 foot boats racing on handicap and formula in fun events that I can get to....

Take Care
Mark

Ok, Here`s my take on things (outsider`s perspective) :
I always wanted to do the Worrell 1000, ever since I heard of it. It`s not likely to happen, but if I lived in the US it would have been on my 'must-do-before-I-die' list.
Without the OBX 500, the Tybee 500 looks like half the challenge, although that is no fault of the organisers, but of a lack of participation in the 2nd leg, probably budget & time constraints due to the fact that most people who earn enough to do the event struggle to get much free time from work, especially if self-employed. Unfortunately, I think that the full 1000mile race would attract more wanna-be participants than actual entries, but would elevate the event back to what it once was, at least in the eyes of the spectators/fans.
That being said, if I lived in the US, I`d drive 4 days across country towing my boat and use up all my annual leave to do so, but don`t think I`d buy a boat just to do the event. Some (like Mike Hill) have done so, but I see that as narrowing down the possible list of would-be-competitors.
I would participate in an event of this nature, not to win it or even try, but just to have taken part and hopefully completed it. If I owned an F18, I`d want to do it on that, If I owned an F16, likewise. If there were enough boats in my class, well then I could try & win first in class, not overall.
I know many will say that an F16/F18 is not up to the task, for sure it won`t be the fastest and you won`t win outright, but if these boats are what you are most comfortable sailing in rough conditions, then you are safer than if you bought an I-20 and are too light to handle it. Even less safe is if you chartered a boat and have never sailed it before the event.
This might open the event up to more aspirant long-distance sailors, if they could sail what they want to and feel safest on. Perhaps have an F20, F18 and F16 class, if I arrived and was the only F16 I`d still participate, just for the challenge. If F20 consists of all I-20`s and one N6.0 or M20, it will all sort itself out.
Perhaps look at some sort of criteria, like a min. & max. projected performance based on ISAF rating, so no boat rated faster than 0.94, or slower than 1.04, could enter. This would create a theoretical performance separation of about 10%, or 48min in 8hours of racing. (reality is, of course, not strongly based on statistics, and you might get a surprise either way.)
You might see a few UK sailors who sail Spitfires or Stealths taking an interest, perhaps a few FX-1 sailors (double-handed) and a couple of Hobie 21`s. Eric might bring his ARC-21 if it rated within the parameters.
Macca might bring a T5.7 on steroids.
If opening up the event to attract more participants would be a bad thing for the event, then I`m missing something.
And for goodness sake, let the Tornado`s come & play if they want to, the top I-20 sailors will still have a good shot at winning, looking at the ratings (0.94 vs 0.95).
Half of what`s wrong in our sport is segregation - "we`ve organised a fantastic event, but only for one class of boat". Look, I get the OD principle, it`s the sailor not the boat etc, but I think that it keeps the fleet small and the interest from outside low.

Just my opinion of course - no I-20 sailors were harmed in the writing of this post .

Steve

I agree whole heartedly with Steves comments, exclusion can never be a good thing, There are few people with the cash to go out and buy a boat for an event. I know it takes a lot of commitment to enter an event like this but don't under estimate what can be done on a limited budget by a committed person.

Take a look at Texel, people travel from all over Europe for this. They have to limit the number of entries of course, but wouldn't it be nice if you were having to limit Tybee to 800 boats as well.

Gareth

Hi Eric
The ARC looks great ,congrates on your distance racing .
Believe it could have been entered in the open class this year ,it was very kind of you to offer it as a charter boat ,--perhaps more of this type of communication is needed earlier to put boats teams potential crew and gr crew together ,-all this helps increase partisipation .
,-and that possibility should be available in 06.

The intent of the post-
an Arc 21 fan also
Carl

Good discussion here, though it's a bit esoteric and unless one of us decides to take over the administration of the race, also just for the sake of talking about our favorite sport.

In the case of open class and inclusion of 18- and 16-foot platforms, keep in mind that race committee would need to be prepared to be spread out. While it is true that smaller boats compete in point-to-point events like Texel, they would likely fall significantly behind the larger boats over a week's time... how do you manage that from an administrative standpoint? Remember, this is not a money-making venture, and additional personnel and associated expenses for a separate committee to follow along behind the 20-footers is prohibitive unless everyone is prepared to foot a significantly higher entry fee. No offense intended, but the daily delta between 20-footers this year was sometimes measured in several HOURS. Imagine a 16-footer beating up the beach in the morning breeze after a sleepless night at the helm, blearily watching the 20-footers blast through the surf on the way to the next checkpoint, and trying to decide if its worth popping into the beach for a quick cup of coffee or just keep slogging... Sure, it has been an iron man event before, but sheesh.

My preference, as if it mattered, is to see it as one-design as possible, with better enforcement of class rules (no carbon foils). There are events that are better suited to smaller platforms - you don't put a barrel horse in the Derby.