A thought regarding statist regimes (which include in varying degrees socialism, communism, facism).

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
—C. S. Lewis

Sailing is a good antidote for totalitarianism. Take someone sailing for fun instead of just racing and we may begin to grow our sport.

David
Hobie 20

Hi,
I think the biggest reason new sailboat sales are down is because there are too many people sitting and typing on their computers, arguing politics instead of sailing...

Steve
Hobie FX-1
Sail #211

Funny --you state you are not going to get into a political debate after stating --quote --{{blame everyone who voted for Bush }},--which is the majority of people that cared to vote .--pretty inadvertantly humorous stuff -timbo
Not reading materials --evan those supplied that may take only a few minutes -- may be one source of problem that leads to what seems to be a self defeating perspective you wish to currently embrace ,--sincerely mean that to be helpfull .--I know --I was one who cared little and did not ,-the typical dumb American who cares little of world affairs .
As to GM s ongoing trend to robotics ---replacing assembley line workers with them and the ongoing international or global market strategies occuring for decades now --http://www.gm.com/
Are you aware that GM owns-partners with Suzuki for example --and that all major car mfg have a global marketing strategy ,--The MFG centers for cars will be located on several general global geographic locations on each continent for car mfg is the base strategy , Most GM employees and execs that they are grooming for plant managerial positions are often sent overseas to train in other countries for this reason .-
Just designed a home for a nice couple that GM sent to Sweden the last two years,-very interesting and they returned with great ideas and concepts as to not only cars but home design and space utilization .
Honda builds in Tenn.and has several plants in the USA as do most former import only car mfg now -Honda has another Canadian plant just across the river ,-I have a civic for my son ,--built in Canada .I drive a Ford and have a GM van for my wife --Have a GM car for my daughter ,--and am customizing another Civic for another son .
Headers -electronic ignition -body kit -etc --great fun .
I live in Michigan between Detroit and Flint .-I,ve read that the Mich GM employees will be relocated and trained in other GM jobs .
Also what has occured in the last decade or so is a return to more customized features in cars that smaller machine shops and stamping plants can produce at less cost than GM ,-SO MORE WORK IS GOING THERE -to smaller specalization shops and custom machine and parts shops.
The rebound in the econony is in full swing --but more so in neighboring midwest states and booming in some other geographic areas . Many attribute this to the current MICH govenors policies and higher taxes enacted that make it less likely to see plant expansion or new ones built here ,and instead going to neighboring states .
Some call this voting with your feet .
The GM layoffs will occur over 3 years to 2008-training and benifits are available just as per previous years -

You noted tech jobs going to India --tHE STANDARD OF LIVING in the US is much higher than the rest of the world generally ,-some equaization will occur ,-the question is do we assist in bring theirs up to ours ,there by helping insure a peacefull free world human population ,-or do we repeat isolationist policies of the past that helped lead to two world wars the last century .
The example of Idia you noted which was on the edge of war with Pakistan over historic disputed Kashmir territory --both having nuclear weapons -http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9708/India97/
as example --US and international intervention helped avoid escaled conflict ,-but the real reasons may be that most of Indias younger people are being employed and enacting with all aspects of US CULTURE ,THIS ALONG WITH MORE TO SPEND AND HIGHER STANDARDS OF LIVING bring a commonality and association .--When Asked about war with Pakistan most reply they have not the time to worry about such things ,-they are too busy with work and moving into nicer homes for their families .

You may ask what a war between two nuclear nations might bring as to cost in human lives and rest of the world .

There are many self defeating people and strategies --many of whom wish things to remain stagnant or evan wish to live as though in the 8th century as per failing theocracies in the mideast and intolerant zealotry that includes ,--hating any different.
Hope you are not just another---it is sometimes much easier in life to transpose blame to others than accept that the problems lie within and recognize our human inherant wants needs faults and failings to comprehend.
Please read -
good luck to you timbo

funny --
I was out sailing on the SC 15 with my youngest son all last evening and hope to be again this one -

note --mine are only responce .

have fun --smooth sailing
Carl

Hey Carl, to spare the rest I will concede to you everything, you are so right, it cannot be debated further. You are right, I was wrong, and I will from now on only vote for Bush, because he is so righteous... Now, spare us from further mega postings please.

BTW, does GM give those 25,000 furlouged people a new boat? If they are all going to be "retrained" why are they calling it a Furlough?

Re. jobs to India, I think we've been doing that for years, to Mexico, but I don't see their standard of living coming up to ours. You really believe that's what is going to happen, or are we eventually going to get down to their level?

How many of those guys you have up there on the roof, swinging hammers, speak english? What are you paying them? Any health benefits included or do I have to wait behind them in the emergency room?


Steve has it right, too much time being wasted on computers, not enough time spent sailing!

I won't make that mistake agian!

Alright Economics majors this is my opinion:

The decline in sailing has NOTHING to do with the prices of boats. The decline in sailing has NOTHING to do with company marketing procedures.

The reason sailing is failing as a sport in the United States is due to the lack of free time Americans have to invest in a time gulping sport!!!!!!!!!!

In a land of $50,000 SUVs,$500,000 average homes, double income families, and a birthrate that will make WASPs a minority in two generations. There is plenty of money. The problem is most if Americans will not even use there 10 days vacation a year would they spend a whole weekend gearing up, driving a hour, spending a hour setting up a boat, and then sitting on a lake that has no wind. No.Would Americans spend time on a sport that one out of three times it wouldn't be worth it to rig the boat. The answer is no. I have met many people at the lake to demo a new boat. They have the money and sailing has an incredable eye appeal but if the wind is less than 5 knots forget even rigging. If they get on the boat and it takes more than an hour to make it across the lake and back they get bored. How many times have we picked up a five year old boat at 30% of it's original new value when it has been used less than ten times and has sat for four years.

I also believe this is a pressing factor in high speed motor boating. Reading some of the adds for Fountain boats the marketing factors of how fast they go are underwritted by the bragging rights of how they can make to the Gulf Stream in less than an hour, reach a restaurant 20 miles away in 30 minutes, everthing is related to time savings and guaranteed speed fixes. Has anyone visited a Marina recently unless it is a Sailing Club chances are motor yachts outnumber Sailboats. The reason time.

On this subject I am actualy curious what Wouter's point of view (not on Americans)but how valuable is free time in Europe and how it relates to catsailing.

Flame away I can take it I am an Isotope skipper to ugly and mean to have a crew.

J.P.Ayers
Isotope 186

relax timbo -take a breath --

All have workmens comp insurance ,--for roofers it is huge 20% -it is a high risk occupation -BUT LAW REQUIRES w c to be on a job site unless its your own home -I have roofed homes ,grew up in building and worked const. when younger --I just design now .
been off roofs 3 times ,-mainly ice and frost unseen early morning going from a sunny side to unwarmed side .
I bounce well --just bruised ribs etc ,.
-being self employed I have blue cross as do most for themselves and their employees who are often small family owned biz .
Here in MI illegal immigration is not a problem ,-all speak English with some exceptions .-The framing crew that will frame the basic structure is a family biz -they are from Romainia -legal immigration and US citizens --they are great ,-well paid -have insurance -and very pleased to be part of the USA .

Interesting that you note immigration --
Hanson wrote Mexifornia ,-having grown up in rural Calif where he was one of few students not of Mexican origin in SMALL RURAL school - You may wish to read it
Mexifornia: A State of Becoming
"Massive illegal immigration from Mexico into California," Victor Davis Hanson writes, "coupled with a loss of confidence in the old melting pot model of transforming newcomers into Americans, is changing the very nature of state. Yet we Californians have been inadequate in meeting this challenge, both failing to control our borders with Mexico and to integrate the new alien population into our mainstream."

Noted for his military histories and especially his social commentary of post-9/11 American life, Hanson is a fifth-generation Californian who teaches college classics courses and runs a family farm. Mexifornia is part history, part political analysis, and part memoir. It is an intensely personal book about what has changed in the California over the last quarter century, and how the real losers in the chaos caused by hemorrhaging borders are the Mexican immigrants themselves.

A large part of the problem, Hanson believes, comes from the opportunistic coalition that stymies immigration reform and, even worse, stifles an honest discussion of the growing problem. Corporations, contractors, and agribusiness demand cheap wage labor from Mexico, whatever the social consequences. Meanwhile, academics, journalists, government bureaucrats, and La Raza advocates envision illegal aliens as a vast new political constituency for those committed to the notion that victimhood, not citizenship, is the key to advancement.

Mexifornia is an indictment of the policies that got California into its present mess. But this beautifully written book also reflects Hanson's strong belief that our traditions of assimilation, integration, and intermarriage may yet remedy a problem that the politicians and ideologues have allowed to get out of hand.

Victor Davis Hanson, a classicist at California State University, Fresno, is author most recently of Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power and An Autumn of War: What America Learned from September 11 and the War on Terror.

Remember that 25,000 layoffs will occur over a period of time concurrent with the normal attrition of, you guessed it- 25,000 present employees.

So basically GM won't be doing any hiring for a few years. But the misfortunes of GM (and to a lesser extent Ford) are not at all related to a 'soft' economy but to management misdirection of company resources going back to the early 90's. Remember that by the late 90's, the big three had all posted record profits and had chipped away significantly at import market share. But they chose to take an easy route to profit building and promoting high-profit (overpriced), truck-based platforms instead of putting those profits into R & D for the much trickier auto market. They made a lot of money in a short time and kept share prices up and paid out dividends. That is American style corporate strategy-for better and for worse. The Asian corporations take a much longer view. (Matsushita electric has a 100 year corporate strategy!)

I think there's a far simpler explanation for slumping sailboat sales: people don't want sailboats. They want powerboats, PWC's, dirt bikes, ATV's and the like. And why wouldn't they? When have you ever seen a slick TV ad for a sailing catamaran? When have you ever seen a slick magazine ad for same in a general interest periodical? I never have. To an extent this is reflective of pop culture, where only stodgy old farts would ever get on a sailboat! All the young, cool, sexy people have engines on their boats-BIG ones! Sailboats are for live-aboard misfits/recluses and big, fat cigar smoking crime bosses! And of course sailboats are slow and boring as hell-EVERYBODY knows that!

Part of this is the industry's 'fault'. They have not advertised their product to the extent that it could have been so that the above situation of ignorance WRT sailcraft exists. Part of it is our fault as owners, but then we did not know the job of promoting the sport had fallen to us. After all, most of us SPEND rather that MAKE money at this.
No matter whose 'fault' it is, we can all do a good turn for the sport by taking a newbie sailing. I know it's a cliche by now but it's still works!. That's how I got into sailing-a friend took me out on his H16. And I have yet to take a newbie on a cat who did not come away saying something like "Wow, that was absolutely the funnest thing I have ever done! When can we go again?" I know it can be a bit of a pain since it is so much more responsibility and explaining and trying to keep them on the correct side of the boat (and you can forget about race practice!) but in the end the sport needs it.

Step Up!

Jimbo

All the political crapola aside (and most of it is just that), here are my top reasons for the downturn in sailboat sales, and I'll start with my guess at why jetski sales are down a bit.

Jetskis - in many places these craft are being banned from the waterways, including parks and the like. So if a family was looking at buying one or two to drag to Lake WakaWaka State Park behind the Winni, they may not make that purchase after skis are banned from Lake WakaWaka.

Sailboats - while general water access is a problem, the fact that powerboat sales are up indicate people can get to the water. I think the main reasons are 1) fuel is affordable enough to powerboat 2) for general use a powerboat offers more options and bang for the buck (fuel costs not included) 3) it takes specialized skills to sail.

#1 is a no brainer - fuel is still cheap enough that for most cases power boating is not going to break the bank. If this were not the case power boat sales would drop.

#2 sounds like heresy on a sailing site - I consider myself to be a "non-denominational boater" which means what's most important to me is be on water first and worry about the mode last. I prefer to sail, but I appreciate power boats. I believe that for the usual family who just wants to get out on the water, power is probably the best option to get the whole family interested. You can ski, you can fish, you can get to a destination and back (be it your favorite crab shack in some river or a favorite place to anchor) in a reasonable amount of time. Most sailboats being monohulls, you'll not be able to much besides launch, sail around for a bit and go home. Unless you're able to sell the rest of the family on it, they're going to be bored silly. On the Chesapeake, you won't make it to anyplace you want to go unless it's an overnight or extended day trip. Where I live, a good evening activity is hop in a boat, head to Magothy Seafood for Nutty Buddy with the kids. Easy on a powerboat, not so on many sailing vessels. When people purchase boats, the activities they plan to use them come into play. For me, the answer to this is easy - have both a power boat and sail boat! But most people are silly and limit themselves to one boat... My wife grew up a powerboater, and if it weren't for multihull speed I'd have to go more power - leaning around at 6 knots max is not her idea of fun! Riding on the trap or wing nets is. Now, I know that you can do all these things on sailboats too (only if the conditions are right!), but we have to admit it will happen easier on the powerboat.

#3 is both a plus and a minus - I have to admit part of the reason I like to sail is that it DOES take special skills. You get a reward for learning things - it feels good when you get it right. But for a lot of people, getting on the water is daunting enough without having to learn how to sail. Where do you learn to sail? Most places it costs money to get in some kind of classes. Once you take those classes it might take years before you are completely confident. In the mean time, is the boat going to offer the same enjoyment, or is it going to scare your family because nobody is confident? But for those who get bitten by the sailing bug, just the feel of the boat under sail is addictive - I can't imagine living without that. That feeling is generally more important than the destination, but not everybody appreciates that.

Anyway, those are my main reasons to explain the downturn in sailboat sales. Now for catamarans themselves: I think the main problem for cat sailing is the almost complete devotion to racing that is going on.

Take a look at the boats that are available new. Which of those boats fit the mode of a fun and durable daysailer that can also be raced? Hobie-16 is about it. The boats that we all gush over are race machines, and are expensive and scary to newbies. Yes there are roto-molded fun thingies, but if you want real boat... Remember the video of the Hobie-18 blasting through the surf? Lots of things in that video attest to just bombing around on a boat. Skiing on a daggerboard, driving up the beach. The boats used to be more about fun and then racing, instead of just about racing. And when a new boat costs $15k, is mostly for racing, scares the family, can't be used to get Nutty Buddies or go fishing, well, the results are predictable. Mostly only the hardcore racers will have them.

When I had my Hobie-18 before I started racing, my wife and I enjoyed blast-reaching back and forth accross the Bay trapping from the wings. When the wind died, just lazing around on the wings was fun. That 18 turned out to be a pretty good open class race boat as well. Dual purpose.

Looking back on the blathering I've offered up, I'll add that jetski sales are also falling for some of the sailboat reasons - they are not as universally useful as a regular powerboat.

Hobie Cat Sales / Sails are up...

I don't know what the rest of the industry is doing about making new sales and creating new sailors, but we are now in our 8th straight year of growth in Hobie Cat domestic sailboat sails. I won't even mention the huge growth in kayak sales we are experiencing.

I also will say that sales out of our Australia facility are going through the roof!

Cat sailing on the decline? Not for us.

Now I'm known to be able to create and read lengthy posts but Carl, I ain't got nothing on you. As for the author of that rant he is of the kind that would intepret a workers revolt in the USA as a sign that the people are routing their employers because they're not outsourcing the workers jobs quickly enough (free market). Main point; the guy is in the total dark why the French and Dutch voted "No". He is a faith based thinker (=wishful thinker), we all know how they think about old-fashioned thing called "reality".

Wouter

Great to hear it!

Regarding the time squeeze. I feel that we europeans have the same issues, valueing our free time dearly. Lots of people thinks catsailing looks very interesting and fun, but they dont want to spend time or money on it.
Here in Norway we have 25 days vacation, and most work 8 hour days, 37-39 hours a week (ie. most have weekends off).
Our sailing club have about 250 members, thats about the same number as there are non-member sailboats in the nearby harbour. Most of those boats seldom leave their moorings, and when they do they usually motor to the nearest bathing place (Dang! Whats "svaberg" in english).
At our club, there are about 8-12 boats racing regularly. Out of those, there are three boats that win the majority of the races. Those are the same boats that care enough to spend time on the water.

When people are asked why they dont sail more, start at regattas, attend work-days or barbecues at the club etc., they usually say they dont have the time.
This is probably somewhat true, as the children usually have three or four activities where parents must attend. And then the parents also have two or three other interests as well, where they spend time. What it usually boils down to, is that they dont put a high enough priority on sailing..
I dont know why it is this way. Perhaps it takes a special kind of mentality, or good experiences to truly enjoy this sport. Perhaps the general population have become numbed by TV and commercialization (probably not spelled right, to tired to check the dictionary) to realise that they can get out there and do things on their own?


We go sailing two to four times a week, becouse it's great fun to make the boat go fast as a team, and to work with ourself to see how fast/good we can become. It have other rewards as well, but you guys probably know what I mean.

Sales could be down because of 60 hour work weeks, and the fact that both parents work just to make ends meet. Many times that means taht one parent must work on the weekends leaving the other to stay home and care for the kids. This is my situation. Prior to my wife working (real estate) I had most weekends available, no more. My boat sits a fair amount.

Lets face it, Europeans have free time. Many work 60 hours a week and never take up hollidays but enjoy working and the status that comes with high flying job. But working so many hours is never a requirement overhere. Doing 40 or 35 hours a week is enough to support you lifestyle if you settle for a normal suburban lifestay with an economic Japanse car. Typically (by law) each working person has at minimum 25 days a year that he can take up a free time. Many have a little more between 30 and 40 days. Distances are short as well but I think something else is an important influence as well.

Culture

Sailing overhere is is also a social thing. You are a member of a sportclub. Many clubs has their own club houses, often with showers and such. Quite a few sailors some in for a chat just easily as for some sailing. But sailing is regarded as more refined than motor boating here. Men with alot of golden chains around their necks buy motorboats, but men with stature by sail boats. Sail boats nearly always regarded as the superior one in status to a motorboat. You really have to have a MF big and expensive motorboat before you win out over a guy with a 30 ft (sail) racer. I think Americans as a people are less guided by tradition and culture (derived from old notions of nobility) in this sense. Americans tend to be more of tinkers and like to get their hand greazy on machines and engines. Their national character seems to be more geared to survivor like challenges and contests. Often with alot of "oooomf" or "vroooom". In Europe you can't win yourself much appreciation with that. Overhere the way you perform a feat or handle a challenge seems to be important as well. If you sat out a drifter for many many hours and came out ahead makes your performance more respectable; simply because of the way it shows character. There is a reason why the french are driving forces behind circumnagivation attempts and races. Why so many singlehanded sailors are European. Doing a stunt like that and showing character will propel your status to the highest level. You can take your time, you can choose to fight another day there is no shame in that, actually these things can well enhance your standing. When the conditions get nuclear, Americans are regarded as people who drop a few curses and get into the thick of the fight. Europeans are regarded (expected) to take a step back and look at the situation and find an elegant solution to it. In oversimplified terms : Americans are boxers, Europeans are fencers.

So why all this culture babble. Well because sail boats suit the European psyche better and for Americans the believe is the other way around. Sailboats are the floret (fencing) of the watersports, while speedboats and powerboats are like grunt and masculinity of a boxer.

So yes, free time plays a big role, But so too does local organising (in sail clubs where sailors socialize) and European culture/tradition.

We must not forget that while Europeans and Americans do regard themself part of the western civilisation and can communicate with eachother and understand eachother very well, that there are still big differences in how both people look at things. Actually the differences are quite big and often run deep as well.

Of course tradition, local organisation and social-democractic governance systems have garanteed water access in most European places. For example. All of the Dutch coast line is owned by the state. And she will grant access to anybody who adheres to universal guidelines of proper usage and safety. Big Hotels may purchase property behind the first dune but they may not buy the beaches and first dunes. As a matter of fact, You can walk from the south to the north along the coastline and not trespass on private property. Money is not always King here and common good and societal needs are taken into consideration. both at the present and for may be in the future.

Such things do tend to make sailing more accessible and does make it easier to maintain a sport (life style) like sailing.

Wouter

Okay, here's another theory that I just made up: kids. Young adults seem to be totally devoted to their kids these days, spending much of evening and weekend hauling them to this that and the other practice or sporting activity. And there are a lot of different activities people are into these days, and many of them have high time demands, are highly competitive, and are often fairly expensive when you add up the gear costs and activity fees.

I'm also into martial arts, and the real money in martial arts is ... kids. Most (not all, but most) adults get into it only after hauling their kids to practice and watching for a matter of months. I don't know if a similar path exists for drawing in adults via youth sailing programs since I don't have any experience with them.

Racing Clubs and the health of catamaran sailing.

Keith raised the issue that the focus on racing limits the appeal of catamaran sailing.

I just wanted to make a couple of points. Historically yacht clubs have defined their central mission as one of sponsoring racing and the social scene defined by the restaruant and bar were secondary. Gary Jobson has recently chastised many clubs for undercutting their core mission and simply managing a restaruant with a great water view.

I don't know of any catamaran clubs that are open to the public and purely social. If they exist... please let me know how this works. I personaly have no interst in joining a social catamaran club.

Personally, I will not waste ANY of my time in organizing a social event for the public. There is no juice in this one for me ... I certainly organize a social sailing party for my family and friends but this kind of activity does not require any coordination with club members.

On the Chesapeake, I belong to Podickery Point Yacht Club, the facilities are the best I have ever run across however there is no club.... It is actually a marina and the catsailors come and use their boats on their own schedule and without the need of any other catsailor on the premise. Recreational sailing does not require any organization or community or commitment to any other human being other then yourself. In contrast, The West River Catamaran Racing Association that Keith runs has nothing more then a lot with water access, a discrete tree and a well hidden port a pot for the ladies. They get 10 to 20 sailors who go racing on Tuesday's from April to November. Racing requires an organization, rules and commitments from sailors and so naturally clubs are essential to make this happen. Not so for the social scene.

I would be very interested in how Sandy Hook CC addresses the balance between racing, serving as a social club and serving as a marina for catamarans. I belive at last count they had over 200 boats with mast up storage on the water of Sandy Hook Bay.

Take Care
Mark

I think Wouter just called sailors a bunch of elitist, hippie, pinko, liberal socialists.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Ohhhh what I could do with 25 days vacation or more. As it is, I have been with the same company for almost 9 years and I get 15 days. I will get 20 days vacation after I've been there 15 years and that is the maximum. I will admit, however, that I used to work 50 and 60 hour work weeks but have been scaling it back to 40 or so - hasn't done my career a whole lot of good but I do get a little more time to spend with Bonnie and sail.

i get 30 days off guaranteed a year, work only one day of a weekend only twice a month, full medical coverage for me and my family (only a wife)

I love my job! Pay could be better, but I aint complaining!

Lets go sailing, just got back from sailing the blade for nine hours straight!