For what its worth the I14's are slower then Hobie 16's. The US champ sailing at Gunpowder in one race was not able to maintain his 5 minute head start on a windward leeward course.
Skiff sailors like the challenge of avoiding a crash. He who keeps the pointy end up wins the race. Some would call this boat fun... others would call it poorly behaved.
We say the same thing about Hobie 16's!... so better to live and let live... (but all of those crashes have scrambled the I14 guys speed sensors)

Just my view, from personal experience:

I've been sailing my Stealth in about equal amounts in the two configurations. I don't actually feel that there is much of a difference between them. Around the course I'm possibly faster in sloop setup. But 'in a straight line' the two setups are the same. I'm winning races in both configs, and battling with the same boats during each race.

The freedom this gives me is fantastic, and is something I've never experienced with any other boat in more than 30years. To be able to DEFINATELY go sailing on a particular day and not have to chase around for a crew or worry about whether it'll be 'too windy' to sail one-up is an absolute joy.

THAT is what attracted me to the F16 class and what should be the real reason for anyone buying one

Racing on a first over the line basis in either configuration is therefore in my opinion perfectly fair, whatever the 'expert' handicappers might say.

Just to elaborate on Darryl`s Mosquito story :
We have a guy who wins almost all our races, whether he sails uni or sloop. He can make the boat go fast in both configurations, such that the rest of us can`t beat him too easily, either way.
Now, I can sail sloop faster than I can sail uni, so it`s different for me, but that could be a factor of my weight since I`m quite light, and struggle a bit uni in over 14knots.
Another thing: in over 12knots uni can outpoint sloop, but sloop goes faster, so VMG to the A-mark is about the same, and downwind they are so similar up until about 18knots, where uni struggles a bit to keep the bows out, less weight on the rear beam perhaps.
Good sailors still get to the front. Worrying about whether all the boats are exactly the same usually puts you somewhere in the middle of the fleet, because you`re too busy looking for excuses not to do well.

Robi and all,

I would like to say something about the ratings numbers. The numbers quoted for both setups under different rating system don't seem to point to one outcome.

Actually

The US DPN says

F16 UNI 66.4
F16 Slp 65.3

= sloop is projected to be faster then uni by 60 sec / hour bouy racing

Texel 2005

F16 Uni 100 by 104
F16 Slp 102 by 102

= Sloop is projected slower in light airs by 72 sec/hour and the sloop is projected faster in heavy winds by 72 sec/hour


ISAF (SCHRS)

F16 Uni 0.98
F16 Slp 1.02

= sloop is projected slower than uni rig in all conditions by 144 sec/hour


Australia VYC

No F16 ratings yet only Taipan 4.9 with spi corrections.

F16 Uni 76.5 * (1-0.031) = 74.1
F16 Slp 74.0 * (1-0.031) = 71.7

= sloop is project faster than uni-rig in all conditions by 120 secs/hour bouy racing.


So the bigger rating systems in the world are definately not in agreement with eachother.

And in the case of the VYC rating we must realize that the F16 uni was boosted a little relative to the F16 slp to make them more equal.

In the beginning of the class (2001) we worked on the rules with the knowlegde that the Taipan 4.9 uni's (no spi) could hold the sloops on short courses and in light to medium winds. So we trusted that the extra width, the larger square heads and large mainsails would help the uni's gain some ground on the sloops.

Of course a singlehander is always disadvantaged in the really strong winds, there is nothing we can do there but in light to medium conditions I think we'll find that the two are too close to one another to make first-in-wins unfair. Afterall even the ratings who can't agree on which is faster don't put the two (on average) further part than 99 seconds after a full hour of racing. And that is mostly because ISAF (SCHRS) rates the uni so much faster, I think that ISAF is not correct in this. Both Texel and D-PN only put the two setups about 66 seconds apart per hour racing.

In engineering and statistics we call this inconsistancy between the ratings natural noise. It is most likely caused by natural swing in the basic data used to produce the rating numbers. Compare it to this. Throw a dice 10 times and take the average of the outcome. Do this experiment 10 time in itself. When you will plot the averages you will find that probably none of the real averages is equal to its theoretical average of 3.5 and you will probably find a few averages at 2.5 and 4.5. This is natural swing in the numbers caused by chance happenings. Ratings system by necessity suffer in the same way.

I'm sure that if Gary sailed his F16 uni in the USA instead of AUS that the US d-pn for the uni would be faster than the slp. But then again if by chance Daniel van Kerckhof was born in the USA over AUS than the slp would probably be rated faster again. So here are your chance happenings that may influence the rating numbers.

I think there is only one real conclusion that can be made from the rating systems are they are now. The theoretical difference between the boats is too little to be of significance. If it was significant enough than all rating systems would at least agree on the direction of the inequality and only haggle over the magnitude of the gap.

Once again my personal experience don't point either way either. Personally I think Texel is probably best. A small advantage in light winds and a small disadvantage in the heavy stuff with on average the same performance AROUND THE COURSE. That is certainly how it feels like to me

Wouter

The Australian VYC yardstick rating can help us out here.

F16 slp + spi = about 71.7
F16 uni + spi = about 74.1

Hobie 16 = 81

I-14 = 86.5
49-er = 83.0

The 49-er is actually the fastest skiff in the listing.

Only a 18 foot skiffs can be expected to be faster. From memory they were rated around 70 = equal to F18 and old standard Tornado, but then again these boats are sailed by professional crews.

Everything seems to point to the fact that cats are just noticeably faster; which is my own experience sailing the 49-er as well. I'm sure that "old skiffy now F16 sailor" Paul Kilkenny will back me up here. Paul ?

Wouter

Hi all,

you guy's just start these posts to keep me up at night I am sure.

I will try to keep it brief, Mossie info is fairly accurate in OZ they have exactly the same VYC rating. The best Cat rigs are sailed in Vic. which has more cat than sloops, the best Sloops are sailed in S.A. where there are more sloops. When the top Cat and Sloops come head to head there is very little in it. Cat a bit quicker than Sloop in light winds and reversed in strong winds but both of them generaly beat all the rest of the fleet of cats and sloops combined.
So Cats and Sloops have been proven to race boat for boat in a class. Although these guys don't swap cat to sloop seriously as their set ups are quite different.

F16's. Altered raced at PKSC Drag race regatta against 3 Taipan sloops, in windy races 15kts plus Sloops beat Altered in one race, and where ahead before they retired in second race which Altered did finish but doesn't take as a win. In 2 races under 15kts Altered won both with one sloop finishing within a boat length in one of these races. Overall in these races against at least equal competition One up and Two up F16's where generaly within racing distance of each other for a large part of all races bar capsizes and retirements.

Qualifying factors.
Taipan Sloops where not optimised F16's (not full width) but where still faster in strong winds. Altered is designed to only sail one up. I think that like the top Mossies this will be the case for F16 to be able to race top boat one up, to top two up, the boats will have to be optimised for it. But for the average sailor who's F16 is set up to sail Two up and occasionaly sails it One up, Two up will always be a bit faster because that is what they are use to and their boats are set up for it. Which is not a problem as it is still flexible and no further of the pace than the difference between sailors.

Thanks Wouter for putting I14 etc. VYC rating on, it saved me from looking them up. At recent Sauna Sail, Spinnaker cats and Skiffs sailed same start same course, the fastest skiff a 49er was first home one race, but even though all where drifters no trapezing. Spin cats where first home in all the others, there is no doubt Spin Cats are faster but the Skiffs won all on VYC, only the Mossies with Spin could mix it on rating with them. You have to beat them by a lot more than a few minutes on a F16 to win on yardstick.

Hope I made my points clear, always ends up longer than I intended.

Regards Gary.

AWESOME DOC (...bitter to have missed out...) !!!!


Paul Kilkenny
USA #300

The balance of the design makes it possible to simply remove the jib and be able to uni without have to readjust the world. The addition of the spin in either configuration is what now allows them to 1or 2 up without significant performance issues in total. Without the spin, the small loss of sail area by taking off the jib is not proportioanl to the loss in crew weight. The added performane you get by having 4 hands to properly trim everything helps make up for the weight pennalty of 2 crew.


For me sailing solo is fun, but I got into this for the social aspect. I would much rather go out with someone else on the boat when I race or even just fun sail. Whether it is just building on your crew work, or training somebody new who will hopefully get hooked and get into sailing as well.

Just my view of the subject, but it is a concern as there seems to a building argument/division in our budding class about solo versus 2up that is going to cause problems.

I am not sure that "argument within the class" between solo sailors and crewed boats will cause problems Matt, healthy competition within a class like that is most time good for the class and gets more sailors out on the water to "compete" against each other in both configurations, BUT when it becomes an argument outside the "class" due to unjustifiable or ambiguous ratings, thats a differnt ball game. (United we stand against the world - even though we may fight like cats and dogs within the family, what happens at home should stay at home)

Hi Matt,

no division hear, its more like sibling rivalry, sorry if it worries you, that is not the intention, it is something we always did in Mossies stirring each other up.

I started in Mossies sailing two up, but then my kids didn't want to sail with me anymore, can't imagine why So now I am stuck one up, as I am a terrible crew and nobody wants to crew for me

Apoligies if I over compensate for my inability to sail two up some times.

F16 is without doubt best both ways.

Regards Gary.

Nothing tells a story like some real two (or more) boat testing. Why don't you guys get together one weekend T's and B's, one up and two up, do a LOT of round robin racing and start getting some real data. If the data supports the uni/spin/one up = sloop/spin/two up then I'm sure Darline will be more than happy to change the number, and then this whole thing will be a non-issue.

This discussion about uni vs. sloop is about as useful as the 'which F18 is faster' debate.

Just a little comment on the US DPN-
The US F16 DPN was based on the US Taipan 4.9 numbers and results with spinnaker modifications computed in.
The US DPN is based on "real world" race results as supplied to the DPN committee. When the Taipans were first introduced into the US I was one of the few people racing the boat cat rigged or solo so most of the results sent to the DPN were my results while most of the sloop results were represented by such sailors as Jim Boyer, Greg Goodall, Glenn Ashby, Lars Guck, Peter Alarie.... Need I say more? I mean I don't think I'm a bad sailor but coming off a NACRA 5.0/18square to the 4.9 was a big adjustment while those other guys I mentioned are awesome sailors and definitely far more capable of sailing the sloop up to it's potential. For instance, when I picked up my boat Jim was there with his daughter racing a demo. 4.9 and he was beating the (then new) Inter 20 (with a good sailor aboard!) around the course in most races boat for boat (NO spin on the 4.9).
As regards the comments about "optimizing" the boats- all my racing to date has been with a "sloop" main while the dedicated 4.9 cat sailors in Aus use sails with a different cut. There is even a "cat rig" mast for the 4.9 of which I have one with a cat rig main for it and it is definitely a better sail for cat rig on the 4.9 vs a sloop mast and main. Only problem for F16 is the cat rig mast is too light for a spinnaker (and I consider this a good thing since it precludes any type of an "arms war" for uni vs sloop masts in the class- see comments about the Nacra 5.5).
As for a versatile boat, at that same regatta where I picked up my boat I raced one race with my son on the boat sloop- he was terribly seasick the entire race and spent it hanging over the front beam wretching! Between races I dropped he and the jib off and sailed back out to enjoy racing the rest of the day while he enjoyed watching from the beach! Boat behaved and sailed fantastically and I knew I had found the perfect boat for me!

Just some thoughts from an old US F16Hper-

Kirt
Taipan 159

How strange.
There is another Kirt Simmons who races in the A Class.
He competed in the 1997 North American and world Championships in California.
I think he bought one of the first Fylers in North America and still races it.
He just posted on the A Class forum on July 1, 2005, two weeks ago, and signs with;
Kirt Simmons
Flyer USA 185

I'll bet that anybody with that kind of experience could make a very easy transition to the smaller and heavier f16.