Line honors in small open multihull class at Huntington Lake--Paul wasn't there to contest me; also had 8 I14 skiffs sail with us.

And a rare article in the newspaper.

http://www.fresnobee.com/sports/story/10856941p-11630399c.html

Sweet CONGRATS Eric. You are making me want to go Uni even more now. After September I am sure I will be going UNI, training a new guy every other race is a real PITA.

Back ontopic, congrats on your win.

I'm definately faster sloop, and I believe sailing uni is more challenging to do well. But it's very satisfying when you get everything working right...and there's no crew to train and no one to blame or yell at but yourself when you screw up!

Eric,
Is it just you who are definitely faster sailing the sloop rig, or is the sloop rig definitely faster than the unrig? Isn't the heart of the F-16 concept that sloops and unirigs can race against each other equally?

Mary it has been proven that a sloop F16 can sail faster than a Uni. The DPN will reflect this so will the Texel ratings.

Sloop can be pushed a lot harder than Uni's

Mary,

The F16 is, in theory, very similar in speed whether sailed sloop 2-up or uni 1-up--that's one of the neat things about the class. In reality, it is easier to sail the boat 2-up for a couple reasons: 1) Sloop is easier to tune and tack--adjustments like mast rotation and downhaul need to be more precise sailing uni, the jib helps maneuverability at during starts and tacks; 2) It is easier to manage the spinnaker sailing 2-up (2 people handling 3sails instead of 1 person handling 2 sails and trying to steer, trap, etc).

Either set up, the boat is fast and fun. I'm sure there's a lot of sailors out there who could sail faster than me with either set up. I think that despite the slight disparity with the Portsmouth and Texel ratings, racing 1-up uni vs 2-up sloop as "first across wins" would be fair and fun.

Robi--If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Portsmouth rates the sloop F16 faster while the UK's small cat rating system and Texel rate the uni F16 faster.

Despite the fact that me and a Hobie 20 finished well over five minutes sooner than the fastest skiff (same start, same course), there seemed to be a sentiment amoungst the regatta attendees that the skiffs were the fastest boats around. Sort of amusing. I enjoyed chatting with the skiff guys, though.

Anyway, does anyone know the I14 rating comparison? The dPN numbers don't seem accurate.

Nice save, Eric. I could see the entire foundation of the F-16 class dissolving and going down the drain.

One of the big selling points is that it is easier to get a class going because sloops and uni-rigs supposedly can race boat for boat. It appeals to people who do not want to race on Portsmouth.

What do you mean by this comment?

I thought I already explained it:


Eric had said that sloops were definitely faster than unirigs, which would not be conducive to class-building. And then he backpedaled nicely with his later comments.

But why would a comment on UNI or sloop being faster than another NOT be conducive to class building.

I got into this class, because it is a boat that can be sailed either one or two up. That was my selling point. Not because one or the other was faster.

Thats why I ask, I still dont understand your comment.

Portsmouth rates an Inter 17 (EU spec) at 735 and a 49er at 750 if that is any use.

Robi,
The whole idea of a Formula class is that the boats can all sail together, no handicap, just like racing one-design.

HOwever, the very unique aspect of the Formula 16 Class is that Sloops with two people and Unirigs with one person can race against each other, no handicap. This opens up the class to a greater number of people.

In the case of the Nacra 5.5's, the problem was that the sloop rig was different from the unirig, so you couldn't just switch back and forth from sloop rig to unirig by simply removing the jib.

The Formula 16 has supposedly overcome that problem.

Eric's original post made it sound like there would be no competition between a sloop and unirig. THAT made it sound like the whole concept of sloop/unirig being able to race like one-design was out the window. But then he elaborated and said they CAN race together.

If F16 sloops and uni's cannot race together even, what is the point of having an F16? Let's say you have six Formula 16's at a regatta -- 3 are sloops and 3 are unis. If you can't race together as an F16 fleet, you are going to be divvied up into the appropriate Portsmouth fleets. Yuck! Or what if you have five sloops and one uni. If you can't race together as a fleet, that lone uni is going to be relegated to a Portsmouth fleet, while the other five of you get to race as, basically, one-design.

Okay, I don't know how much more I can explain it.

IF this your concern, why have F18's why have H16's? Why have Tornadoes? Why even have catsailing in general? Formula 16 class is a smaller lighter class, than can keep up pretty good with the bigger guns.

If you look at the rating numbers, they arent rated equally. According to the experts, they arent on the same level. (Experts as in Number assigners, and not builders, builders is a whole nother ballpark) If I sail Uni, I would want to be put in first in wins, its an option we can have. But according to Portsmouth and Texel UNI and SLOOP arent the same. And RC's would have the ultimate decision on assigning UNI's along with SLOOPS.

Both have cons and pros. But it is proven the sloop is a faster F16.

I dont think F16 UNI and F16 Sloop are the same, and cannot sail on a one design level. Plus the F16 is NOT a one design class and thank GOD for that.

Mary,

You've got the concept dead on. What I said was that I can sail my boat faster 2-up as a sloop. I do not believe THE BOAT is necessarily faster one way or the other. Take rounding the leeward mark. Sailing 1-up you've got one person to steer, douse the spinnaker, sheet in the main and traveller, adjust the outhaul, downhaul, mast rotation, and get out in the trap. Sailing 2-up the only extra work is adjusting the jib but now you've got 2 people to get everthing done; with a good crew I'm going to round the mark quicker and more efficiently than doing it alone...at least until my skills are sharper.

Bottom line is that I'd be more than happy to sail "first across wins" in a race with both F16 uni and sloops.

Frankly, I don't know what "proof" Robi has that the sloops are faster than the unis. Wouter can chime in with some calculations, but I think the results will show only very minimal THEORETICAL differences between the two rigs. Again, that's one of the unique aspects of the class. Paul and I are the only people I'm aware of to have actually raced F16 sloop vs F16 uni (Camellia Cup at Folsom Lake).

For photos of a uni and sloop at the same start, go to photos #27 and 29 at:

http://www.flyc.org/pdfs/2005/CamCup/2005camcupslideshow.pdf

Since we were the only F16s, the race committee scored us on Portsmouth, giving Paul a slight ratings advantage as a uni. But if we had more F16s--and a mix of rigs--we would have had them score us boat for boat. Until more races with a mix of rigs happens, there's no proof that one or the other rig is faster.

Many years ago there was a catamaran that was home made from ply called the Mosquito. In its original form it came out cat rigged sailed one up. Very soon a few people decided that they liked sailing with a second person (why I'll never know) so they fitted a jib to the mozzie and swung a second trapeze and away they went. Well this was fine but in those early days they were never as fast around the course as the cat rigged, one up mossies (the more experienced sailors were on the cat rigged at that time). They didn't like this so they fiddled and fiddled with the rig etc and pushed and pushed more and more around the course and after a few seasons no one could tell if one was faster than the other (except the sloops found that their hulls had to be redesigned several times to stop the bows pulling off due to the much greater loads on them with two people and a jib on a low bridle and this tended to make the sloops a slightly heavier boat) Then over many years of sailing the honours of which form is fastest between the cats and the sloops has gone back and forth from one to the other. The faster form of the Mosquito has never depended on which configuration it has been sailed in but the numbers of sailors and the quality and competition between those sailors, in which ever configuration they sailed, that has determined in which form the mozzie is fastest in (at the present time)
I would venture to say that if a group of really competitive sailors, competing against each other week in and week out on F16's in only cat configuration (and they stayed only in that configuration ), they will very soon match and surpass the boats sailing sloop rigged. The boats in either form are so close in potential performance to each other that it will be the quality of the sailors on the boats that will determine in which form the boats are fastest (AT ANY GIVEN POINT IN TIME)

Eric I posted this with extreme carfullness, because I wanted to avoid a post like yours. I will quote myself so you can see, what I said.
Importance on the CAN sail faster, The DPN and sloops can be pushed harder
The proof im running off is our beloved Portsmouth rating:
F16 UNI 66.4
F16 Slp 65.3

Texel numbers, which if they read as of portsmouth I would assume lower equals faster
f16 UNI 99 109 104
f16 sloop 102 106 103

Also my experience at Daytona, after seing a TF16 raced uni, was noticebly slower than the F16 sloops; with the exception that he was much faster than we were. We still in early learning fase, which again I will have to start from scratch in September. Asloop can sail higher downwind a lower upwind for MORE speed, making it faster.

We need to remember, faster does not necesarily mean quicker. Those who win are quicker around the course, NOT necesarily faster.

I am not a diehard fan of DPN ratings, but I am just stating what I have noticed. I am all ears for this type of discussion. Which so far is an excellent one I may add.

I haven't been able to find proof that one setup is in basis faster than the other on the sailing I've done up till now.

Different ? Yes. Faster, differences seem to be too small to be obvious.

Take Texel rating for example

2-up light winds 102 heavy winds 102
1-up light winds 100 heavy winds 104

So on average the boats are PREDICTED to be about as fast, the average of 100 and 104 = 102 of course and at some wind force the two boats (ratings) cross.

But really 2 points on 102 is like a 70 seconds difference after a full hour of bouy racing. Or like 30 to 40 seconds in a typical bouy race. Now I can't tell such a difference from wether it is caused by the boat or by something the crew did on the race course somewhere. Also these theoretical time differences are really small when witnessed on the water. Typically boats are 10 to 15 seconds apart when you already having a feeling of being right on top of each other.

What I did find is that trimming the 1-up boat is more difficult. It is not difficult to control but rather to find the trim that really makes the boat go.

Last weekend I did a few hours of sailing in 15-20 knots. Bloody strong wind when single handing and when finding the right time (for me ; very little mast rotation, alot of mainsheet and even more downhaul) she fell in the groove and really sped up. Before she was doing alright but not special. The difference in speed was very noticeable.

I really believe that racing 2-ups and 1-up on first in wins is totally fair. Sure there will be performance differences between 2-ups and 1-ups, it simply can not be any other way. But who cares about some 1 or 2 % difference when having the corect trim can easily account for 10 to 20 % speed difference. Simply put if you are not good enough a sailor to find the correct settings than you don't stand a chance no matter what rating you are sailing off (or what configuration you are using)

We all must begin to understand that its just like the A-cats; on a F16 you are either going really fast or really slow depending on the fact wether you trim is right or wrong. The F16's don't have much middle area of "medium" speeds like some other designs have. This situation leads to the outcome where the sailors sailing with the right trim for the most of the time are at the top, independent of other factors. This seems to suggest to me that "first-in" racing between 2-ups and 1-ups is fair. Although I fully expect the sloops to have a little advantage in 20+ knots and the cat rigged setup having a little advantage in 5 knots. On the other hand ; many people will say the same about F20's and F18's in light winds and of course I recently wacked them all in such conditions just the same.

We are making far too much of little theoretical differences. By far the biggest difference in performance, and I mean by a factor of 10 to 20 relative to the other factors, is still the skill of the crew. Second are course conditions like favoured side, windshifts, luck. And dead last is design related boat speed which is at an almost neglectable level.

I agree therefor fully with Darryls comments (made on the mosquito cat)

Work on your skill in particular setup and you 'll be in front no matter whether your racing first in wins or on handicap.

Wouter