It is not just the actual words "World" and "International" that ISAF controls. They do not allow use of any other word or combination of words that would lead reasonable people to believe that an event is a world or international championship.

If a class is formerly an ISAF international class and then allows that membership to lapse (either through no longer fulfilling the requirements or by not paying their dues), they can no longer call themselves an international class and they cannot hold world championships or international events. One example is the C-Class catamarans.

Your Formula 14 Class absolutely cannot call itself the International Formula 14 Catamaran Association. If ISAF finds out about it, they will notify the Australian Yachting Association to tell you to remove the word "International" from the name.

The International Wave Class Association was duly incorporated as a non-profit association, but we were told we have to remove "International" from the name, even though it is a logical adjective, considering the fact that there are Waves on the beaches of countries all over the world.

We are not going to change the name, of course, and I suppose the only recourse ISAF has is to require US Sailing to drop the association as a member of US Sailing. It hasn't happened yet, but I guess I'm tempting fate by publicly posting this.

Can ISAF prevent any class from holding a world championship if it wants to? Of course not. What they CAN do is prevent people from coming to your event by threatening suspension of the racing privileges of everybody who participates. On the international level, this refers to the Olympics, the Pan-American Games, and any ISAF international championships. The national governing bodies of the countries of the sailors that participate can also impose suspensions of rights to sail in national events (e.g. US Sailing Championships).

ISAF and its national affiliates take very seriously their responsibility to protect the integrity and credibility of world championships. They don't want "maverick" classes putting on half-assed worlds, because apparently they think this is going to reflect badly on the sport that they govern.

So why can't they just figure out a way to designate which are the REAL world championships and which are the maverick ones, so ISAF doesn't get blamed for shoddy race committee work?

Many classes have no interest and no reason to want to become an ISAF international class. Does ISAF then have the right to use threats and blackmail to prevent them from building their class in whatever half-assed way they want to do it?

All I know is that ISAF claims to govern sailing in all its forms throughout the world.

P.S. So far they don't seem to have gotten control of the iceboaters and landsailors -- they can hold all the world championships they want.

P.P.S. They also no longer have any control over me personally, because I am too old to care about sailing in any of the ISAF or USSA events. I can go to a Wave Worlds and thumb my nose at ISAF, because they can't do a thing to punish me. Unfortunately, that is not true of some of our younger friends who cannot attend because they still want to be able to sail in other ISAF and US Sailing events.

None of the people who attended the last Wave Worlds got suspended, but we are going to do another one. Maybe it will have to be seniors only, as far as people going from the United States.

Isn't the standard way to distinguish between the different worlds to incoorperate the governing bodys name into the worlds title? E.g. ISAF F-16 Worlds instead of just F-16 Worlds? Thats the way it works in other sports I have been into before at least.

Rolf,
Class World Championships do not incorporate ISAF into the title. I am suggesting that ISAF require something like that, to distinguish between what they consider to be "legitimate" world championships and the "maverick" world championships.

That would help ISAF protect the "integrity" of the legitimate world championships sailed on ISAF classes, but not punish people for sailing in the nonlegitimate (by ISAF standards) world championships.

And why punish classes that are trying to build? Doesn't make sense.

Mary, I was thinking about boxing (and other martial arts), where there are a lot of different 'World' titles. Clearly, nobody owns the "World" titles there. Peculiar that ISAF takes this position, as you say, but a great way to stiffle any alternatives to ISAF. What would happend if NAMSA put on a worlds? All sailors participating ousted from all ISAF event from there on? If businesses operated the same way..
Come to think about it, what about the racing rules? ISAF governs those, but do they own them as well?

I think the 18 foot skiffs had the right attitude on 'governing' bodies

Sorry for hijacking the thread Wouter.

Interesting question. If you hold a world championship that is not allowed by ISAF, are you allowed to use ISAF racing rules? Or do you have to come up with your own rules? That could be REALLY interesting.

This is definitely correct - Regulation 19.4.1.(c).



This I am less certain about - at least I have been unable to find anything in the ISAF rules that deals with this. In fact given that this body is affiliated with Yachting Australia, my understanding is that they are free to organize any event they want to as long as they don't call them world championships. (RRS 88.1(c)). And this would include "international" events, such as inter-dominions, continentals etc.



I can see that would be a problem if the association name was being used as part of the description of an event that could be construed as claiming to be a world championship (though I think the legal grounds here are a bit shaky if the claim is not explicit).

Mary, was it someone from the ISAF who made this demand? Paul Henderson? Did they cite a particular regulation? I'm wondering if they were just trying to intimidate you, without actually having any real basis for the demand.

Mark.

Another interesting question. I will ask US Sailing about that. It would be more generic, like the International Catamaran Challenge Trophy, which does not specify a particular boat, and which is currently using a boat that is not an international class.

ISAF is a little bit confused.

Just this week there is a European championship of a certain recognized class with only 2 boats attending. A second class has the same event with only 9 boats attending.

Simply because these particular classes have a very power body behind them and because this body has paid the class dues. Dues that it has earned in exploiting another far more succesful class that has its own seperate European championships at a different date and location.

THAT is what reflects badly on the sport they govern.

Not some maverick class that goes about its own business.

But then again. I have difficult in seeing the logic in some other ISAF rules as well. The dues are pretty high as well and certainly for a starting class they are impossible to pay when charging normal member fees and having to budget for websites and other expenses as well.

A class most likely can't pay for the recognition unless it has a firm base of at least 200 paying members. In our sport that means that a multiple of 200 class compliant boats have to be sold first. I suspect in the order of 1000 boats. I can name a score of classes that fail to do that. A this listing contains well known boats like the Hobie Fox, hobie FX-one and Taipan 4.9's; so it is not all obscure design.

Wouter

Paul Henderson specifically told me I had to remove the word "International" from our association name. And I'm quite certain Janet Baxter said the same thing. They cannot cite a specific regulation, because there is no such regulation, as far as I can find. They just use intimidation.

I told you guys not to get me started on this.

Meanwhile, Wouter needs stories and photos for the magazine, so let's get back to that before I start crying.

Please continue Mary, this is all valuable info for us. We have positioned ourselfs so that we are in the clear for a while longer, but eventually the F16 class will have be confronted with ISAF stance on these things.

Wouter

Yep.

For us catsailors it is waiting till a powerful class decides to test ISAF's resolve. As the H16's did in the past as I remember. Of course IRYU (predessor to ISAF) never made a fuss about that as the H16 class was just too power. A typical example of coming down heavy on the weaker classes while avoiding to pick a fight with an organisation of equal cloud.

I also don't think a single 18 foot skiffie was ever banned from the 49-ers by ISAF. Chris Nicholsen and the MCKee brothers have held titles in both classes. Also halve the top 10 in this years F18 world championships can be banned under the given rules as they at one time sailed in the Taipan 4.9 class which isn't official recognised. (examples; Glenn Ashby, Goodall, Van Kerckhof)

Also Figuroa can be banned as he sailed in the unrecognised F18HT class. Etc etc How about all those sailor who sailed the Alter cup in 2003 on a unrecognized boat.

A typical double standard if there ever was one.

Wouter

Wouter,
You're right. ISAF is confused. And they have it backwards. Classes should have freedom to develop their class nationally and regionally and internationally. And if at some point they want to become an ISAF Class (although I don't know why), they will have the credentials for doing so.

In the case of our Wave Class, I asked him about becoming an international class, and he said it was very doubtful that it would ever become approved.

So, in other words, he is saying that if you can't get approved as an international class (or don't want to be an international class), you are not allowed to have world championships. And, if you do hold one, everybody who participates will be banned from ISAF and National events.

To me, that's crazy.

"This may well also be an issue for the proposed Australian nationals being planned for the coming season, unless it is organized under the auspices of some body affiliated with Yachting Australia."

Hi Mark,

no problem, the event is just part of an existing regatta held by a affiliated club.

Regards Gary.

Hi Wouter,

I have with the help of Tim and Phil, written an article for OZ mags. would it be useful as a guide? Also have picked out a lot of the best photo's of OZ F16 and a couple of International ones, which we sent with article for mags. to choose from.

Tim could probably send it to you in the format you require, if we ask nicely.

Regards Gary.

Actually I don't think it's correct that they could be banned just for sailing a class that isn't recognised. I believe the two situations in which someone can be banned (at least the ones relevant to the discussion here) are (i) sailing an unapproved world championship, and (ii) sailing in an event that is not organized by someone recognized by the ISAF.

The SA Taipan Association at least is listed on the Yachting Australia website (incidentally, the F16 configuration gets a mention as well), along with all of the clubs in Australia that sail the Taipan. Those clubs are presumably affiliated with Yachting Australia, and possibly the Taipan association is as well. In any event, RRS 88.1(d) says that racing may be organized by



As far as I can tell, the class association itself does not have to be affiliated with anyone. So even if the Taipan association isn't affiliated with Yachting Australia (and I don't know if it is or not), as long as Taipan racing is done in conjunction with a club affiliated to Yachting Australia, then there's no problem.

You could sail bathtubs and still be ok as long as a recognized club organises the race. But just don't try having a bathtup sailing world championship.

Ok sorry Mary. I'll stop now.

Mark.

Gary,




Definately ! I would be very much helped by such a thing.





Excellent !

I'll send Tim an e-mail.

wouter

W,
The 18teens dont hold "international championships"!! Whats they hold is a cup named after a sponsor!!..

So the ISAF has no say in the running of the event..

The Tiapans as far as I know dont host a "world title' or Inernational title".. They do fit I believe under the rules for an Australian Championship and are (as far as Im aware an affiliate of YA).. So who ever sails in the national titles is wihin the ISAF rules..

So as far as I can see your two logic statements are flawed.. (sorry)

The INTERNATIONAL FORMULA 14 CATAMARAN ASSOCIATION is not only affiliated with yachting Australia and Yachting South Australia it is also listed with Yachting Australia as a legitimate, recognised class of catamaran and a recognised class association BY THAT NAME, a copy of the constitution, class rules, and class regulations are held by them and APPROVED by them, The association is registered with the dept' of consumer affairs and is approved by them as a legitimate association UNDER THE LAW for the administration of "the class", and under the law the association is also fully INCORPORATED. No class can be more legitimised than that, and if the ISAF or any other body that has arbitrarily decided that they have more control and/or power over a legitimate legally incorporated body than the legal and political system of any sovereign state, and through their (ISAF) ASSUMED control/power make threats, regardless of what kind of threats and to whom so ever, then I am afraid that if it was directed towards us I could see no other option than to “call their bluff” and pursue an outcome in the appropriate court system. It would seem that the position of the ISAF in regards to this matter is tantamount to a form of “terrorism” by threat, threats that I have yet to see any action taken by the ISAF (other than threats). It makes me feel that it is possible that the ISAF make these threats in the belief (and hope) that no person or body will actually ever “call their bluff”. (An illegal law is IS legal only while people accept it as such, BUT when found to be illegal by challenge it then disappears)
I personally think that if the situation did arise where some one sailed in an “unofficial” worlds (by the ISAF’s reasoning) and they later gained acceptance to sail in the Olympics (for example) the ISAF would quietly turn a blind eye to their previous “indiscretion”
Can you imagine the uproar if some time down the road, the top Tornado sailor from the USA was “banned” by the ISAF because that sailor had sailed in the “Wave worlds” years before, when he was 15 years old?? I don’t think it would ever happen.

PS the 18' skiffs have held events in the past that were called either "world titles" or "world championships" The "payne Mortlock canoes" call each race that they have "world titles" then again there aren't many of them and they only sail at one club in the world?

Hi Darryl

I will take the unpopular point of view here.

You can call the boat anything you want... The class of sailors can choose any name that it wants... BUT... sailors who participate in events that ISAF has declared illegal by their bylaws will suffer the consequences with regard to participating in other ISAF events/ national events.

I support ISAF on this one... Some organization must be agreed upon and their must be a way to enforce decisions. The structure that has the most buy-in from sailors is our regional sailing authority which is sanctioned by the National Sailing Authority which participates in the International body called ISAF.
1
So, if a sailor wants to participate in an unsanctioned event... they just can't play in the sanctioned ones... What's the problem?

Likewise… what would your view point be if a sailor was barred from competition for gross unsportsmanlike conduct by ISAF or your National Sailing Authority? Should your club allow this sailor to compete?… If they choose to ignore the national sanction and let the individual play…Should they be sanctioned in some way by their regional and national authority? The sanction would be that as a member of the X club, you are not permitted to compete in the national YYY events.

Taking another example, Hobie Class Association sanctions a WAVE Class, Rick White chartered the International Wave Class before Hobie figured out that people might want to race Waves and before they created a class. Which one should be recognized by the national and international bodies?

Sailboat racing is a social construct… We have agreed on a set of rules, conduct and organization. If a group decides that they wish to compete and do away with some of the rules… they have every right … but… they can’t expect to be treated with impunity by the mainstream groups.

Take Care
Mark