I continue seeing references to a international F-20 class, but I am unable to find a webpage.

I found: http://www.formula20.org/ but it's a defunct webserver.

http://www.f20.nl/ is the dutch F-20 homepage, but it's in dutch The rules I found there are so simplistic I cant help but like them (look under "reglement").

Does anyone know where I can find a set of class rules for the international F-20's?

Carl?

Just heard that the platform weight for the international F-20 is 190Kg. That sounds excessive if its correct, even a good ply boat will be 40-60Kgs less. The Tornado is around 160 ready for action (sails and all)

Still have not found an on-line set of international rules..

Hi Rolf hello Eric

The only I f-20 link I have is through the UK Catsailors web site -not sure of its status -

http://www.catamaran.co.uk/IF20/IF20.htm

It is nice to see the F-18s going strong .
I prefer the 20s

Havn't been able to sail much this season .-
slow economy ,daughter starting college etc -
but hope to get out towards the end of Aug.

Hope your all out racing

take care .

Well, they are sailing, but re-direct any questions to catsailor.com

Looks like the only information available about an international class is the dutch site at http://www.f20.nl/ then..

What do you guys think about the class limit of 190Kg's?

That effectively eliminates all the CF boats. Enter I-20, H-20, etc...

In racing the Tybee 500 this may there was one Marstom twenty in the mix , it seemed like any time they chose to get the boat dialed in correctly and steer a consistant course it just sailed away at faster speed being substantially lighter .

I don't know of any good method to equalize boats that are this far apart in weight and the coresponding speed advantage.

I;d love to purchase one but don't currently have the extra 25K
The old I-20 will have to do , I think that is the reason for the F-18 weight as well ,-more affordable cost that enable more people to race .

Happy sailing

Yes, huge weight differences will create a performance gap. I think 190Kg's are excessive tough, as even 20 foot plywood boats are lighter than that. I find the Tornado heavy to handle on the beach, and its only 165-170Kg's (and I am no lightweigh myself). I am quite sure Marstrøm could build the T's lighter, as they are seriously overbuildt today. Just look at how long the Olympic competitive life of a Marstrøm T is today.

I think the F-18's could have been buildt considerable lighter, without being more fragile. Take the Taipan 5.7, a boat longer than the F-18's, but still weighting in at 135Kgs. I dont know for sure, but I hear that when AHPC buildt the Capricorn, they ended up looking for ways to add more weight to it, as they keept on finding themselves below minimum weight.

On the dutch site, they operate with a max width of 2600mm, still 400mm narrower than the Tornado. and 393mm narrower than the M-20.

Carl, in the Tybee, did you race the M-20 first to the line or on handicap?
I just checked the tybee500.com site, and there was a plethoria of classes listed under point 4 of the SI..


If there was to be an active F-20 class, I think minimum weight should be set somewhat agressive, to give producers an incentive to build lighter boats. Width should not be set to accomodate legal trailering width, these are sailing boats, so optimal sailing performance should be the priority.


I know I'll get flamed for this, but.. To get this thing flying, the F-20 class need a Wouter (and his background helpers)!

Well in North America there isn't a need for it right now. There is only one boat the fits in except the sail plan. The Nacra 20 has proven to beat all other comparable 20 foot boats including the Nacra 6.0NE. The Hobie Fox is gone as it's a dog. If 98% (globally) of the F20 fleet is Nacra 20s then why would the rules change to allow wider and lighter boats. It won't fly. The N20 will just race one-design and allow other boats (we allow the N6.0NE to sail heads up locally) to sail against us.

I think the topic here is an eventual international F-20 class, not a Nacra/Inter-20 US based one-design class who allows other 'stray dogs' to race with them? We can always discuss philosophy and one-design vs. formula racing, but humor me and lets discuss true formula.

There are many other 20 footers than the Nacra/Inter-20, you will have to document 98% before I belive that. There have been buildt several thousand T's up trough the years, then there are M-20's, Eagle 20's, Taipan 5.7's, Ventilo's etc. The rules found at http://www.f20.nl are probably tailored for the Nacra/Inter-20, but if they are opened up a bit, many other boats can compete.

I guess the Formula 16's met many of the same arguments in the start. After all, the Hobie 16 is probably the largest catamaran class out there, but they seem pretty successful in their class building.

The 98% I was referring to was the current F20s boats racing under the current rules. The F18 class model is there and the current F20 rules mirror that. Why mess with a proven model. If you open them up then you ARE creating a “stray Dog” class. The M20, tornado and Eagle 20 are all over 30K in North America. So what I see out my back door is that if the rules were opened to lighter and wider boats the current F20 boats would not support it.
In summary I am in support of a F20 class but not at the cost of changing the rules to allow wider and lighter boats.

Barry, could you point me to the North American F-20 rules you are racing under? Who govern them? Seriously, I would like to read them and know this. I have been unable to find anything like it, except some suggestions made by Carl on this forum.

I have failed to find an international set of rules or organisation also, so I have so far concluded that there are no international F-20 class. Would be good if there indeed was somebody taking care of this.

What you describe in north america doesn't sound like formula racing, it's one-design racing with a few stray dogs. If you have a good racing circuit going for the Nacra/Inter-20's and the 6.0's, thats great. If you was to gather the 'light and wide' 20-foters in a formula class, what would you call that class (please dont say Formula-20HT)?

Rolf
There aren’t' any real F-20NA rules. I am referring to http://www.f20.nl/. I don't see the rules on the site but I think I have them at home. This is the only active F-20 class I know of.
The "stray Dog" is how the F-16 was started.
Not sure what I would call the class. HT works I guess.

Carl is the stay dog...Good job BRO!, trying to muster enough interest to start F-20. This class has much potential. There are many 20' boats that are getting left in the wake of F-18.

20' boats are awesome....

There are a number of active 20 ft cat sailors that will now support a F-20 class based on current I-20 specifications.

The larger beam lighter weight boats would just as introducing 18 ft versions into the F-18 result in an unfair advantage to those able to afford the 30K LIGHTWEIGHT versions.

In the Tybee we raced all together , the Marstom though sometimes very eratically sailed was serveral percentages faster when dialed in . The team sailing it was good but not the calibur of the top few teams on I-20s in the Tybee who have years of Worrell and Tybee racing experience and are among the best in the world at it ,-no offence intended to any. My own lack of racing -practise time really showed this year as we were only competitive and near the front either when there was below 5 or above 15 wind speed conditions . Our 400 plus crew weight killed us in the mid range conditions especially with chop . It is the weak point of the Inter 20 design ,its wide front forward hull sections in chop and waves ,this compounded and magnified by added crew weight.

Barry -Rolf-Eric or any ,please propose a set of F-20 rules based on the I-20 specs. I think what is really needed is a Hobie version F-20 ,perhaps upgrading the Fox to match the I-20 ,then we would have a similar F-18 Tiger vs Nacra F-18 basis to unite the two main brand classes into another Formula 20 class .

Any have a connection with Hobie Europe in FR ?

BELIEVE FROM THERE MANY OTHER 20 VERSIONS WOULD FOLLOW AND MODIFY TO RACE F-20 , we should be ready with a basic set of rules .

Some are posted here -this is the lattest version I proposed
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Thanks for filling in on the M-20 Tybee-500 boat Carl. It's strange, but I dont think I have seen it do well in any major events? Perhaps the really good crew's stay on their preferred platforms..
What class did the M-20 race in, open class?

I think it's wrong to say that lighter 20 footers need to cost US$30K. It might be so today for production boats, but even plywood hulls can be buildt lighter than boats fitting a F-20 rule based on the Inter/Nacra 20. If AHCP manage to build boats of identical stiffness and lifetime in either plywood or glass (Taipan 4.9), I am sure Nacra and Hobie can do the same.

I will not do any work on a F-20 rule based on the I-20 design. As said earlier, I think and feel that it is to heavy and narrow (there is also the issue of the US version vs. the EU version with less sailarea). Sorry, that's the way I see it..

I would be more interested in a rule setting e.g. the M-20 as the reference boat. Such a rule and class could produce boats able to race Tornado's, and T's are the current benchmark, first over the line.

Hi Rolf

I agree on the current I-20 basic design being too close in weight beam SA and performance and think I,m also ready for a lighter wider faster 20 class to emerge.

We have proposed in several versions the F-20 concept based on I-20 specs for 5 years, as Barry noted most already sail the I-20 and see no need for F-20, the negative aspect is the 20s are disappearing from the race scene .
Here in MICH --Great Lakes area --lake Michigan ,-we have a major regatta called the Catfight .
http://www.catfightrace.com/Muskbch.htm

There are only 3 20s entered ,plus 4 Tornados , so there are already more T to race locally if a F-20 was developed to include them .

Lets propose an international lightweight F-20 class and leave the old tech behind . I would like to build my own design ,so would prefer a more open developmental type class rule structure. Things like angled boards -foils and sail plan variation allowed .

just my 2 cents

Boat Type Skipper Crew Sail
NACRA F18 Brent Carlson Jennifer Carlson 338
NACRA F18 Daniel Hearn Morgan Hearn 344
NACRA F18 Mark LeBel Peggy Gillespie 563
NACRA F18 Marc Kennedy Frank Burns 315
NACRA F18 Matt Struble Domonique Struble 558
NACRA F18 Leah Duby Travis Duby GBR 123
NACRA F18 Chad Schwall Brian Jurmo 555
Hobie Tiger Paul D. Krutty Kim 1457
NACRA F18 Chad Schwall 555
Hobie Tiger Olli Jason Kelly Jason 1461
Hobie Tiger Dave Stiemsma Andy Stiemsma 1609
NACRA F18 Tom Liston Mary Jo 316
NACRA F18 Mike Kletke Ashley 80
Hobie Tiger John Bauldry
Giselle Vasiri 1317
Hobie Tiger Matt Bounds Michael Ehnis 1808
NACRA F18 Bruce Inwood Jenny 343
NACRA F18 Tom Powers Lori Arrowood 126
17

NACRA 20 Guy Selsmeyer Debbie Selsmeyer 851
NACRA 20 Claus Schnabel Rick Olt 250
NACRA 20 Dave Reese John"JJ" Johnson 852

Tornado (Int) Matt Johnson Kent Kruckeberg USA 04
Tornado (Int) Martin Malcheski Benjamin Malcheski USA 824
Tornado (Int) Kurt Wellenkotter Josh Garrett TBA

http://www.catfightrace.com/attending.htm

Tornado (Int) Chris Tuckfield Nina Barlow 817

Carl,

I feel that a 20 footer should be suitable for us 'heavyweights'. People become heavier every year, so there should be some natural potential for recruitment

What I would like in a 20 foot formula class is:

Max 20 feet length 10 feet wide (2x1, the age old formula for cats), but open for shorter/less wide boats.
Minimum weight 120Kg's including 5Kg corrector weights, no upper limit.
Sailarea upwind, max. 25square meters
Sailarea downwind, max. 50 square meters
Mast area/2 included in sailarea
Mast max. 30cm chord (to stop solid rigs, let the C-class keep the wings)
Not sure if mast height should be included, initially I would say no.
T-foils allowed on rudders, no other hydrofoils intended to lift the hulls allowed.
No glued beams.
No material restrictions

Open enough to allow experimentation, but closed enough to allow some good racing must be the goal. I always tought that was the idea behind Formula racing.

Why not adopt the old B-Class Rules and add a 25 sqm spinnaker?

Max overall length of 20'
Max overall beam of 10'
Max overall sail area (including mast) same as current International T.

You might want to adopt some form of weight adjustment to equalize boat weight/crew weight that allowed heavy weight crews to sail on lighter boats (reduce boat weight by 1/2 lb. for each extra lb. of crew weight) to make the sailing more equal, just like F18 does. Just some thoughts that would stimulate boat development and allow existing International T's, M20s, Eagle 20s to compete boat for boat.

I dont know if I would go so far as that. I think it's sensible to limit both lower weight and rig type (no solid sails).
I would also like a double trapeeze..