"Shutting Up"

hey, you started it john....(you had to be there)

Just getting back in town from a trade show... I understand a few key points now.

7 teams joined in on the protest because teams were asking for "redress"... a change in their results. Other teams had to join the protest or risk being excluded from the adjustments in position.

Rules are here for a reason... to guide sailors and RC's through races to keep the racing as honest as possible. When a rule is broken, it is the onus of teams to protest accordingly.

Unless there was oil in the water... that sure doesn't look like 5 knots...


nor was it balanced and filled in. It doesn't take electronics to tell that it was very light. Of course... that is why they then changed the rules allowing racing in the light air.

Just don't blame the sailors for following the rules.

The secret is out about that Blue spinnaker...

Here is the low down:

The big secret... its Blue. Same cut as used for several years, not the new F18 cut. This is the same spinnaker they used in the Tiger Worlds.

Blue will be available standard in 2006 models.

Thanks, Matt - can you take a look at the Zapruder film for me next? Love ya, man, but c'mon. Stay on topic.

Dont worry John, "Hard Copy" will get to the bottom of this. I just need everyones home address.

What rule was broken? The RC determined that there was at least 5 knots of wind. Therefore the race stands.

Now if the protesting teams had some sort of concrete proof other than "the water wasn't moving and, uhhh, there were bugs" then bring it to the table and I'll be more than willing to see it your way.

However, no such evidence was presented, therefore I'm calling shenanigans on this crap. Just because you blew up a race doesn't mean that it wasn't legitimate.

Go Hard Copy!!!!!! You guys are great and Chuck's laugh is spectacular.

Actually... The judges determined that RC did NOT determine wind speed at the start of the race. Last wind reading was taken 15 minutes prior at the start which was recalled. Starting line was adjusted due to a big wind shift. Mark is a great PRO and an honest man with enough integrity to go to a hearing and tell the truth. And the truth was that no reading was taken at the start of the race nor could he say if it was 5 kts at that time because he simply did not try to determine it. I don't know if the race would have been thrown out if he claimed there to be 5kts without using instruments (licking the finger, sticking the tongue out into the wind or whatever) but it doesn't seem to matter since there was no reading taken at all.

Someone claims that there was 6-10kts during that race? I want what they are smoking!

Hi Matt,
Got a question for ya?
If Ya got 5 knots of current going the same direction as 5 knots of breeze what's the water look like?
Todd Hart

tigeroxj,

I'll only discuss one point because I promised John I was dropping....but I spoke with Mark and he did feel he had 5 knots and was not pleased that the race was thrown out. In our file for redress he stated that he felt that he had 5 knots or better. When asked (by the judges) if he could prove it he said that he could not. I think he was caught on a definition of words between "prove" and "determine". He shouldn't have had to "prove" it persea as nothing stipulates what constitutes "determined" in the SIs. He measured 4.7k several minutes prior to starting the race. A wind line filled in and he felt, based on the previous measurements, the appearance of the windline, and the breeze on his beard, that he easily had the 5k. Naturally, I can't speak for what happened behind closed doors in the original redress but I think that if there was a way, such a case that affects so many teams should be heard in an open forum. It's unfortunate that the rules do not allow such hearing (but I can also understand how it might take all night).

Tigeroxi

The wind speed was taken from a R33 anchored at the beach. The wind instrument was at the top of the mast.

tigeroxj
stranger
Reged: 08/15/05
Posts: 1

Way to go ahead and register to post that mindless bit of drivel.

WHY was the PRO asked to PROVE that there was sufficent wind?

WHY weren't the protesters (accusers) asked to provide definitive PROOF that there wasn't?

And to top it all off,

WHY ON EARTH did the protesters participate (AND FINISH TO BOOT!) in the race if they were so sure that the race violated the rules and would be thrown out?

Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is and tell me with a straight face that the very same competitors that protested the race would have done so if their finishing positions for said race were on the greener side of the pasture?

Don't worry about answering that. I know that the kind of people that support actions like this HAVE NO CONVICTIONS.

This pisses me off so much, I can't even sleep because its been running through my head so much.

Seriously guys...this is done, the event is over and even with the controversy it was the greatest single event I've ever attendend. Let's learn from it and let it go. I'm sure that R/C's in the future that are reading this thread or heard of the event, but haven't already, are going to carefully consider their wording is SI's when it comes to a minimum wind requirement or how often they measure and record the wind speed. Even our US Sailing committee is going to look at from several angles to see if there is a way to reduce the controversy in the future. I think we've learned and will learn a lot from this event. Further bashing it out is not going to help.

Way to pull out the stick and stir Todd

I think John W. really summed it up the best... If you have to pull the kite out to get to A... you’re probably a redn... I mean should abandon the race.

IF the PRO was req'd to take a reading just prior to the start and did not, and there was question as to the wind speed, then the burden of proof is on the PRO (IMHO). I wasn't there and have no stake in this, but... just my opinion.
W

*DELETE*

Sorry - said I was done and forgot there for a moment.

Congratulations on your 2nd place finish Olli and Kelly (Tigeroxj). The NE is beaming with pride in the 2nd and 3rd place finishes. Nice sailing. Now please slow down.

What ever happened to "sportsmanship”, "fair sailing" and "it is solely the responsibility of every sailor to determine whether he will race or not" Surely, if the guys who "protested" actually started the race AND finished, then by those actions of theirs, they had shown that they had fully accepted the RC's decision to "start and complete" that race? and for them to then turn around and protest "after the event" they could be seen to be "sailing/competing in an unfair manner". by those subsequent actions of theirs?
(rule 2 FUNDAMENTAL RULE, “A boat and her owner shall compete with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play”). This applies both on and off the water. Why didn’t any of them “fly a protest flag” during the event? Why didn’t any of them notify any official of their concerns “on the water” if they felt that they there was a case to answer. Why leave it to the “shore based sea lawyers” to try turning the “rules” (or their interpretation of them) to their advantage (whether justified or not) isn’t racing about “sailing” not “litigation” in one form or another?

Hee Heee....not for long

I mean that in a light hearted yet "inside info" kind of way.

"Inside info" kind of way???

I don't get it.. Does it have anything to do with crap?, pure crap.. vs.. processed crap.. vs bullcrap?

2006, ready to rumble?

Cheers,
Congratulations on hosting an exciting NA F18 event.

It is ridiculous that some sailors protested the race.

It is more ridiculous that the jury heard the protest.

And it is most ridiculous that the jury decided against the race committee.

And it is all because of that stupid rule. Just let the race committee make the decisions about when there is enough wind to start a race (or too much wind to start a race).

Was there also a rule that you can't start a race in over 25 knots? If so and if some people didn't do well in that much wind, could they protest after the race and get it thrown out if the race committee could not prove the wind was under 25 knots?

This whole thread is embarrassing for the sport of sailboat racing. And the jury decision was insulting to the PRO for this particular regatta.