I wasn't there but....
I've been listening patiently to both sides of this discussion as someone who one day hopes to race with and against you all and thereby teach my son about competing and sportsmanship. First I want to say I completely agree with Mary's earlier comments.
I think generally we have placed so much emphasis on the outcomes of these competitions that the letter of the rules rather than the spirit of the rules is what becomes important. I watched with my son the other day a Ryder Cup match from earlier days when Jack Nicholas picked up the coin of a competitor thereby conceding his 4 or 5 foot putt and halving the entire competition. Some of those individuals who are on one side of our current discussion I'm sad to say would have said Nicholas was an idiot because he was completely within his righta and playing by the letter of the rules to make that other player make his 4 or 5 foot putt. I'd like to think (and I am overjoyed with the same conclusion my son came to) that perhaps that situation embodies what this and all competition is about. Winning yes, absolutely, but not at all costs. If you lose, don't go running to the rulebook to see where you've been wronged. Accept that all competitors had the same conditions and congratulate the winners. Accept that Mark did his best to ensure a fair race and don't ask him to "prove it". Is it any wonder why it is getting harder and harder to find volunteers for anything these days. With all the crap that comes with the job, up to and including questioning of integrity, pretty soon people we will ruin this for everyone but the lawyers.....
I hate the direction this thread took after the well-deserved congratulations of all those who did such an admirable job putting it all together.

End of pollyanna rant.

Air, air, are we on the air! Live in 3....2....1..... Phfsht, glug glug glug glug Ahhhhhhhh! Thanks Jake..... . Drink more Kalik! Bob-A-Bouy.

I'm not sure there is one right answer or one perfect standard for every event. Certainly at nationals-level events the sailors are able to handle a wider range of conditions (wind and wave) and will tollerate fewer mistakes from the RC before crying foul. However, at local events with A, B and C class sailors all toeing the line together, it's often as much about about the experience and fun of racing as scoring a high placing. In these "local" events, to pull the plug on a race because the wind dips below 5 knots seems a little too strict for the spirit of the day. At a national-level event, by all means, lower wind limits are worthwhile for maintaining a fair play, as are upper limits. I think it comes down to the spirit of the event and having the judgement to handle the situation fairly.

That quote came from a post by Jake.

Now, I don't pretend to know a lot about rules, but I do know a lot about the meaning of words. If the sailing instruction says "should" rather than "shall," it is not a rule -- it is merely a suggestion. And that makes the protest committee's decision even more inexplicable.

This is a right receipy for endless protests. The light weather specialists will always protest the RC for starting in too much wind and the heavy weather addicts will protest the RC for starting in too little wind.

Battery of the DIGITAL windspeed meter dead ? Ohhh shucks, lets cancel all the races for the day for there will be no point in starting anyway. Last minute adjustment of the start-line ? Forget about mate, if we do we will have to do a 15 min measuring session at all bouys again or risk the race being thrown out.

And yes I have experience in this, actually when being part of the RC at a past Hobie nationals. Luckily the RC head was an old racer himself and he knew full well what "top crews" are up to. And he treated both the rule makers and the sailors accordingly. He wouldn't have no "impossible" rules in the NOR and when the sailors started bitching he simply replied :"we're racing and you decide whether you want to be part of it"

Turns out that afterwards many and many sailors came up to him and thanked him for excellent leadership and excellent courses all weekend. Even the guys that not long before tried everything to get an advantage expressed that it was one of the best managed events in years.

In the end of the day you'll have to be prepared to educate a few "rock stars" that sailing is a sport that requires a "can do mentallity" and that will always contain some amount of "luck and bad luck". Otherwise take up playing chess.

I say focus on hiring a well experience RC and have them decide what is suitable or not. Appears that the US F18 nationals did just that as Mark apparently made a good call that day. Sadly some rule maker(or enforcer) thought that he had a better overview of the situation than the guys actually setting the course and sampling the conditions. Although doing so with his eyes and skin rather than some digital gadget.

I know a professional RC guy that uses a gps unit to set out a course and his courses are always crooked. Some (digital)gadget is never a substitute for skill and experience.

Wouter

Don't consider that verbatum - I need to get the exact wording from the SI and will do so tonight. Unless somebody has it with them now. Ooo wait. I found them online. My previous wording was admitedly a little soft.

Back to Tom's original thread question.., should there be limits.
As you can see this whole mess was because there were limits. Had there not been, no redress, no bad decisions.

Universally, we all know that the more legislation, the less freedoms. Please review my previous post on the debacle at the Tornado Nationals. Had they not legislated all those rules, I would have abandoned the race.

They legislated and as RC I had to comply. Result? A screwed up race. Had there not been that legislation, the race would have been abandoned.

Placing rules is not the answer to a fair major event.., rather getting a competent PRO to make good decisions.

If every bad decision made by a PRO in a major event needed legislation, where would be now?
Remember?
1) TheMightyHobie18 Nationals in big seas and wind, the RC put the leeward mark right in the surf -- took out most of the fleet.
2) Same Nationals where it was a Windward/Leeward course. Most of the fleet went around the wrong mark that the RC had negligently left in the water, ten sailed the proper course. Most were given a penatly of 11 points (a keeper in a Nationals) instead of the number of starters plus one (or around 60 points) that really screwed up the results. It turned out to be a penalty to the ones that did it correctly.
3) Hobie 20 Nationals in the Florida Panhandle that was started in big winds and seas and took out half the fleet (RC said they were not good sailors, although many were past champions)

When there are problems, legislation is NOT the answer. Common sense is the answer -- just get a common sense, experienced PRO.

Although, that may be more difficult in the future. For example, I really have no desire to work with the Tornadoes again, and Mark may not want to work with the F18s again.
Rick

OK one more piece of info. The sailing instructions are there to protect the sailors and ensure a fair event. The term "as determined by the race committee" was added to the standard sailing instructions a few years back. As recent as 2000 it was not there. I believe it was added because we have had these exact protests in the past. I truly believe it was added so that the race committee did have to prove they had wind about the same time it became easy to have hand held digital devices on all mark boats. My opionion is it is in there to ensure RC's are taking wind readings. Maybe someone that knows something about the exact time the change was made and the intent of the change can chime in. This can be a learning experience, but it certainly is not a new argument. The 99 and 03 H16 nationals had protests against the RC with regard to wind. One race was thrown out, One was allowed.

It doesn't say how it has to be determined, as discussed in previous posts.

can't let this thread end with the jibberish in the above post, and i feel like makin butter, hahahahahaha

most of the posts in this thread that contain gibberish come from posters with very little big event experience, or for that matter much expereince at all. IMHO

The point of starting the thread was to get opinions on minimum wind conditions, NOT to hash/bash or rehash any paticular event or situation.

Anyway this thread is getting old. There are other things to discuss/argue.......What's next

You caught me on your first two points. You know the little man has opinions too.

Let's argue about how there should be a 2 mile b mark leg at all F18 championships!!!!

You don't have to have much experience to recognize Court-Room Sailing at its finest.

Ok, I was going to let the dying horse come to pass, but now I just have to kick it some more since someone brought back into my "active threads" list.



So I'd like you to point out to me where it says in the SI's specifically that the RC has to take wind readings AND record them. I can't see how the PRO can be held to a standard that isn't put into the written rules.

Nobody has even bothered to explain to me why the protesting body wasn't asked to provide proof that there wasn't the minimum wind speed. I mean, if you're going to claim that there wasn't 5 knots, then bring proof! If the judge panel used at least two brain cells collectively, they'd realize that while the PRO doesn't really care either way that the race counts, the protesting teams had much to lose if the race stood, and therefore should be the ones to provide the indisputable evidence. Simple bias.

Next, this bit of garbage:


I feel it was unsportsmanlike. Just because you want to win more than the other guy doesn't mean you acheive it by any means possible. I know its become the de-facto modus operandi of competitive sailing to run to the room when you lose, but I thought beachcat sailors were a cut above that. I guess I'm mistaken. This thread serves will serve to remind me of this fact in the future.

To me, there is more than just a championship at stake here. Witnessing the actions of the teams and the committee only serves to vindicate my loathe for those who compete through litigation.

As for the protesting teams following the rules, I guess I missed this one:



Damn, I need to get the more up-to-date copy of the rulebook.

Maugan, There is quite a bit of emotion involved here... and not a ton of logic.

I am quite sure that SI was written with the expectation that an RC would be taking wind readings (This was backed up by the Jury's findings). "As determined"? Who the heck would write that without the expectation that it would be a valid reading, not just a guess. Every RC has knot meters. Every major event I have been to recently has had minimum wind requirements and lots of wind readings were taken and recorded.

Quit stretching this out of proportion. The rule was in the SI and the RC didn't follow it or back it up. Shame on them.

Shame on you Matt, for having the audacity to disgrace a group of volunteers (who like the competitors), took over a week off from work – some without pay, sweated it out on the water, worked damn hard from 8AM to the end of racing and additional hour after racing ended, all for the sailors and the event organizers – no glory, no fringe benefits, no trophies – they expected nothing in return. and they certainly did not expect to be looked down on like they have.

And here you, and others, who were not even at the event, want to sit back and bash the RC? Hypothetically speaking – let’s say the RC was wrong. Did they do this to intentionally hurt someone? Did they behave in a malicious manner? Did anyone get hurt?

Shame on them?


I am sitting here right now looking at the official reports of all the protests heard.
I'm satisified that the sailors are not at fault, nor is the RC.

Tracie

Excuse me?

Where am I bashing the RC? or the organizers? I am clearly stateing the facts for those that seem unable to grasp that it is a basic rules question. Nothing more and nothing less. There is no intention on my part to offend anyone here. This was a simple opinions thread right? Or is it way more to you guys? Not me.

Simple rules issue it may be, but the way they were used here just feel slimey and lawerish. And now that something like this has been done once..... I'm not sure I would want to be on eigther a jury or a race committee for this type of event as a volunteer if this sorta thing gets to be the norm. I think thats part of why people aren't letting this die, its obviously having a lingering effect, even if its just our little community here.

I am a bit taken back by the emotions still spilling forth on this issue. I honestly don't think there were bad feelings against the RC or any volunteers at the regatta. That is not how these things would be normally be perceived. There are always some heated people during protests, but that passes quickly.

In all reality, nothing would have changed for the regatta results. There was much more racing in light air for the rest of the regatta. It might be a little different if it was all hanging on just one race.

I guess it just boils down to being the controversy of the day.

When is anything *ever* simple on this forum?

I apologize for picking on you, but you’re "shaming" of the RC struck a nerve with me. (Obviously)
It is more to me because all the people on the RC happen to be my friends. They worked hard and served with the best intensions. Nothing about their efforts should be considered shameful.

I am really disturbed when I hear or read negative comments towards people who volunteer their time towards our sport.

Tracie

Excuse me? How the hell do you know that? That is straight up wrong. Did you run the numbers, and if that race would have counted do you think all things would have transpired exactly the way they did throughout the rest of the regatta? Is that your thesis "It doesn't matter anyway"? That race sure did matter. Fact is, that race was HUGE in the standings at the time, and the order could have come out much differently in the end.