Ouch , cheap shot

See ya in the new season. Do you plan to make any trips up to KCC. Look forward to getting the Yarra, KCC and other NSW F-18s together on a regular basis. May be once a month co-ordinate traveling to another F-18 club.

Becuase they are running a business, not a charity for good sailors. Loaning a boat gives them a lot of promotional value for very little expense - in other words, a very businesslike decision.

They're not exactly unmodified factor boats either.

this said, I found out that Greg Thomas and Jacques Bernier represented very well the Hobie brand. Fantastic sailors, very friendly and giving a lot of tips (in other words, no rock stars). On the top of that, good sportmanship after the OCS, run ALL the races (even if they did not need to) which shows some respect to the other competitors and the organization. Wether they are paid or not does matter too much for me.

You talking about the Aussie Tigers or Greg and Jacques' boat? Just what is it that you think is modified from stock?

I did not intend to refer to Greg and Jacques' boat - I haven't had to conversation with them but I would guess that they are sailing a full up factory boat. I was, rather, referring to the boats sailed by the likes of Ashby and Bundock. According to some that have been to the recent F18 Worlds the leading boats have custom foils, sails, and in some cases, masts.

Jake,

I can't really say for the F18 Worlds, that was a Hobie Cat France venue. Like each of the recent F18 events, they are... F18 events, not Tiger events, so there can be many changes that fit the F18 rules. We have not heard that there were any big new things they tried on those boats.

As far as this threads topic, the Aussie F18 event... according to Steve Fields when I spoke with him last week, the boats at the Aussie F18 event were stock. He can better confirm that if he gets a chance to post here.

At the North American Event. Only the top spot was a "factory" team and they were sailing a completely stock boat. We really cannot refer to Greg and Jacques as "pro" sailors either. They are office workers and hadn't even raced since the Alter Cup in the beginning of May. Hardly what you would think the description would be of a "pro" team.

Not to steal any thunder or contradict, but my understanding from talking to them is that they're on a stock 2006 boat... which is only just now becoming available for purchase. New jib and the blue 'chute, along with the STX main that just started shipping a few months ago. My opinion is that they'd do pretty well with the original mustard pinhead, but that's, of course, not what they choose to race on.

So, stock Matt? Yep. For 2006.

Steve just filled me in some more on the Aussie F18 winners boats...

Ashby and Collett were on stock (used, from the Tiger Worlds) boats and STX sails. Stock boards, masts... Sumner was on a two year old boat.



National Champions Glenn Ashby and Andrew Williams on the way to taking the title

Yeah... that is a stock Hobie Tiger. Standard white boards and rudders, sails and mast.

Steve thinks the last F18 Worlds (Italy) leaders there were basically stock Tigers. Some may have had the carbon daggers and or blades that are available to anyone and have been for some time.

John, You mean Greg and Jacques Boat? No their boat is a 2005 that they sailed at the Tiger Worlds. Their spinnaker is the older cut. They had the STX sails that we have been selling with 2005 boats. At the Hobie Tiger Worlds they had to use the older cut. The STX will not be Tiger Class approved till January 2006.

hmmm - I must have misunderstood them about the jib and spin being stock sails for 2006. Jacques sounded pretty definite, but we were in a bar, so...

Matt, there's nothing wrong with the 'factory' team sailing with the best and latest gear. I don't think anyone would expect anything different. I was surprised when Greg was explaining to me that they only get time off to do a certain number of regattas each year. If you have any pull, you should help them to not have to choose only two events among the Tiger Continentals, F18NAs, ISAF World Games and Tiger Worlds. They would represent the US and Hobie USA well in ALL of them. Mango should cough up some budget for the poster boys - after all, they're making his job much easier on the fiberglass side of the house. Now if we could just get some Bravo regattas going, or maybe *gasp* get behind a Wave event, we could make his job easier on the plastic side, too.

Incidentally - I built two 2005 Tigers this year. Second one had the STX and first one didn't.

Ok, well... thread officially hijacked! I'll pipe down.

I'll second that! Greg and Jacques need to travel more and participate in global events. They are certainly hot on the race course and they need to do some representin' for the USA (and Canada)!!!!

Thanks for the clarification.

Don't we just love these word games with Hobie sailors ?


Wouter

And don't we all like Wouter with his one design, one off being an expert on everything. Get a life Wouter.

I know it is extremely hard for Hobie sailors to say the word "formula". They rather call the different boats : Stock 2000, stock 2001, stock 2002 , ... stock 2006. Even though the year 2006 isn't even here yet. Before we know it you can buy a stock 2010 boat in the year 2007.

Anything to not have to say "FORMULA", right ?

Even when refering to my boat you rather call it "a one-design one-off" than what it truly is a FORMULA boat. Forgive me when I have trouble understanding what a "One-design one-off" exactly is. Seems to me that these two describtions are mutually exclusive.

I know, I know. Formula is such a clear expression of "NOT ONE-DESIGN" !

The names "stock 200X" are alot less ... ehhh ... clear and hurtful to One-design junkies.

Just pathetic guys. it's just pathetic.

Wouter

Wouter,

In my context... "stock" has nothing to do with "One Design". It has everything to do with "available to the masses" and not some kind of secret weapon created for some event.

Humm, so who else had access to the "stock 2006" gear except Bernier and crew at the last F18 event ? Certainly not "the masses" or else it would have been named "stock 2005" or older.

Besides I never said it was a secret wapon. Those are your words. Interesting that you choose to deny something that wasn't even stated in the orginal post.

"Available to the masses" can only be done when the Tiger class rules reflect the F18 rules. Otherwise will always see the Hobie factory teams show up with next year stock items. By opening up the Tiger rules "normal sailors" can optimize their own sails and not have to wait till Hobie releases their new stock.

Although this is not a big issue in reality. Any serious Tiger crew already does his own thing without any regard for momentary the Tiger class rules.

Wouter

The way I understood what has been said is that the STX sails are being sold stock for the 2005 Hobie Tigers but will not be "class legal" for the Tigers until 2006. In other words, they are available to the masses and can be used for Formula 18 events, but cannot be used in Hobie-sanctioned events until 2006.

Am I correct in that, Matt?

Yes, Mary has it right.

Everything that Greg and Jacques sailed with was available with 2005 boats. But... they used an even older spinnaker (cut was available several years ago). Many of the Tigers were using STX sails. Remember that this is the cut that came out at the F18 Worlds a year ago.

Ohh I understand it now ...

Tiger class rules are exactly the same as whatever is introduced at the F18 event a year earlier !

Why not have it the same year ? If you guys are going to change the Tiger class rules on this aspect every year anyway, why not just do away with this useless class rule and just copy the F18 rules ?

Are you guys taking yourselfs seriously ? Because I certainly don't. What is the use of any "approved Hobie tiger class" mainsail shape when the rule on it has been rewritten and will be rewritten with every new development in teh F18 class anyway ?

Mind you, the newer Hobie sails (over the last two years) are indeed alot better than before. I can fully appreciate that Hobie allows the Tiger to go with the times where some other classes fanatically hang on to outdated sailshapes.

Wouter

The Hobie Class and manufacturers are walking a tightrope between maintaining one-design Hobie Class racing and a competitive Formula 18 class boat. So far it is working with a few grumbles here and there.
The Tiger class adopts gradual class rule changes, thereby slowing development to an acceptable pace for Tiger Class sailors. This means that Tiger class sailors get more than one season out of their sails etc. The Tigers which compete at F18 events are usually stock standard class-legal Tigers but sometimes they carry the latest prototype gear from the Hobie R and D team. At this year's F18 worlds, USA Nats and Aussie F18 Nats, the top Tigers were Hobie class legal boats equipped with stock standard equipment available to everyone at the time.
Sometimes the HCat Europe team uses the F18 Worlds as a test for new ideas. The Hobie Class does not always adopt these latest developments.
Anyway Wouter, we don't really care what you think!

Mal Gray
Vice President Aust F18
Member IHCA Rules Committee