The only reason I didn't take the boat to Tampa area this summer was due to the never-ending construction on I-4 between Orlando and Tampa. It's kinda hairy through the construction zones with anxious tourists wanting to drive by at warp speed.

Hi Mike,

I tried the north side of Dunedin Causeway once. It was blowing 20 to 25 MPH out of the north so there was a lot of wave action. It was just after a cold front and it was not a good day to be out on the Tri-foiler. The surface sensors had difficulty controlling the boat's height off the surface and they were throwing spray everywhere. It is always a wet ride and in a cold wind, it can be uncomfortable. With a lot of wind it is sometime hard to get the boat moving upwind. It is not made for pointing. The problem is there is not a lot of bouyancy in the amas and certainly not enough lateral resistance in the foils at slow speeds. As you sheet in to sail up wind, the leeward ama goes under the surface of the water and creates a tremendous leehelm which can't be overcome with the rudder. You have to ease up on the main sheet and let the ama re-surface and let the boat pick-up a little speed. As the speed increases the hydrofoils start to generate lift which allows you to powerup the sails a little more. Once you have some speed it is okay as long as the leeward hull doesn't go under in a puff or the foils don't snage something.

It is a real dangerous boat if you don't know what you are doing. The speedometer in the boat reads up to 35 mph and I have had it pegged before. It is a little scary sailing at that speed because if you hit something or something breaks at that speed, you can get seriously hurt or even killed! I snagged a crab trap with the rudder while foilborne once and almost got thrown out of the boat in the sudden stop.

JenniferL

It's refreshing to hear an honest description that provides insight. Most owners are hesitant to share our boats' slight failings.

The Rave's self-leveling wands work really well and you can jibe the boat on the foils; literally a flying jibe. I don't. It's more stress than I want to subject to an out-of-production boat but it surely makes for good video.

I don't bother to connect my speedo every outing but I have hit 38mph. Later that same month I calibrated my speedo (Speedtech "Speed Mate") and the correction needed was 1.16 which translates to 44.08mph. Dr. Sam says to keep it no faster than 35. Rig falls down, goes "boom", after a little while at 45mph. At the limit the Rave makes zipping noises which is the sound of the foils approaching cavitation as they come too close to the surface. The rig hums and groans. Once you've maxed-out the tension on the bungees that keep the leveling wands on top of the water, you have to wonder if the whole boat is going to fly out completely. It can if you push it harder. It's a bumpy ride that is very much like the roll on takeoff in a plane; complete with the little jerks from side to side for steering correction. You have to make slight corrections with your feet on the pedals to the rudder. Once you've flown you just don't want to give this boat away but many have and that decision has more to do with assembly and disassembly time. An hour is realistic.

Buoyancy is a big difference between the Rave and TriFoiler. Each boat is at the opposite end of the design parameter. The Rave was designed for plenty of buoyancy for two people in relative comfort in their seats which is too much buoyancy for my (and my crew's) wishes. The central hull has a slow hullspeed in displacement mode so I'm looking to build a much slimmer and lighter hull, a la TriFoiler, for an improvement or a greater compromise; however you want to see it. A lighter boat lifts off sooner in lighter conditions. I'm hoping not build with a boat that has a problem floating! "It can fly but it can't float." I suppose a good long running start on the beach would be in order.

A smaller foil for the rudder was also part of Dr. Bradfield's original, ideal Rave design. The larger foil at the rudder, which is the same size as the ones at each ama, produces more drag and was a concession to manufacturing and economy for the boat that made it to market. That may change on my boat. All it takes is money and thinking, both of which I don't have in abundance.

How long is the Rave?

Rave Specs:

Length 17' / 5.2 m
Beam (foil tip to foil tip) 17' / 5.2 m
Beam (trailered) 7'6" / 2.3 m
Weight 400 lbs. / 182 kg
Total Sail Area (Main & Jib) 195 sq. ft. / 18 m2
"Screacher" 97 sq.ft. / 9 m2
Draft (foils up) 1' / .3 m
Draft (foils down) 4'10"
Mast Height 25' / 7.6 m
Capacity 400 lbs. / 182 kg
Designer Dr. Sam Bradfield / Hydrosail, Inc.
Introduced 1998

Jake,

17 feet (5.2 M)
Cool aren't they?
Greg

Jake,

If you asked in order to get an idea of hull speed, the square root of 17 (4.123105626) x 1.2 = 4.9477 knots.

With 320 lbs. aboard and seated in the seats, the boat will not break above it's bow wave. I tell Sweet Treat to hop up on the windward side coaming above her seat in the hull, slide aft a little, and we go faster. It's still just not fast enough. In displacement mode, all hulls in the water, the foils can provide lift to speed up but that extra lift will just barely keep up with a Hobie 16. The PHRF's are about the same.

I want to ATTEMPT to build a new central hull that slips like a cat but I have to be realistic knowing that I have a LOT more wetted surface with the foils and three hulls. In other words, I'm willing to trade some comfort space in the hull for a slicker shape.

I wasn't really thinking of hull speed. I was just trying to envision the boat with the Nacra 6.0 center hull and I'm thinking it would look pretty spectacular! I think your biggest issue may be space for you to sit in as the 6.0 hull, although not terribly skinny, is still not wide enough for a regular person to sit in (although we're both probably slightly below average in this regard). You might have to open it up a little for the skipper's area. That and the insides of the hulls will need some finish work because they are pretty rough and not skin friendly. I think it's an awsome idea though and these hurdles are pretty minor. Just need some glass work, a forestay attachment point, rudder mount, and some hardware.

The original rotomolded hulls have an aluminum skeleton inside them don't they? How much of that would need to be rebuilt?

A post from a trifoiler sailor at my club.

In any case, is sound like the angle of attack is incorrect for the forward sensors. Yes, if they are wrong a lot can go wrong.
I had my trifoilder out in 25 winds with 2.5 wave before and no problem.
The Crab pot and hitting things is always a problem.

There are a bunch of Mods that can or may be made to the craft to make it more stable and safer to sail. The Speedometer in my was sent out with the higher range and goes up to 45. Remember, my craft was the one highlighted
in Pop Sci so they may have made more mods to that one.

In any case, the sensor is very important to ensure:

They have a limit to its float rotating. I went through some cals and I made mine so they can an angle of attach of 15deg to 30deg. That is adjusted by the length of the small line attached to the toe of the sensor. The lower it goes, the higher the angle of attach. Also, the J Foil can also be adjusted to ensure its angle of attach is correct. It is very very sensitive and requires high tq to be adjusted. I
had to adjust mine as the right J Foil always lower.

I never had any of my Amas sink, ever. Up wind, down wind, any time. My angle of attack of the J foils always had the front up and out of the water, even at slow speeds. I think that there is something wrong with your angle of attack with J and sensors.

There are problems with thr Tri-Foiler but they can be over come with easy solutions.

The foils when landing do not retract easy and you have to jog left and pop the non-leeward, then jog right and pop the non-leeward. But then you have nothing in the water to steer with and stop leeward motion. They have a goofy leeboard to help with this. They should have a drop down rudder like in the 17' Hobie that is build in the hull.

The craft needs a splash shield and water redirector. I made a small mod
where I placed beads of silicon in a V shape off of the top and it really helps bleed off water and then followed up
with damm right at the ****. This almost totally stopped the water from coming in the ****.

They have a mod to drain water. But I perfer to not punch holes in the hull and use electric pump. There is a nice dry area stern with sealed lid. Can put just about anything in there.

The wires hum at high speed and bug me. This also occured in WW I with theold Bi-Planes. They found putting a foil around the wire, stopped this, and I suspect cut down on resistance but very little.

TOM

Tom, foilers are begging to be fiddled with. It's never good enough. Try this, try that. Higher, faster, sooner, more money, more vacation days from work! Handling the Rave is also a little problematic coming up to the beach. With the foils retracted there is nothing to steer the boat. You can retract the rudder with the joystick but reaching back with one arm to hold the heavy rudder foil down enough to have some steerage is a bit of a contortion. Doran Oster developed a crane system to raise the ama foils while still seated.

Yeah, Jake, it would be the TriFoiler idea of keeping the center hull as small and light as possible. Mary and I like to cruise but now we're willing to give up the roomy hull for a faster shape. (It only took one long day in Pensacola this past June for Mary to loosen the purse strings for the project. It's all my money, of course. I just don't have complete control of it!)

The 6.0 hull would be only a starting point. I'm 5'8" and 150 and my crew is 5'8" and 160 (thank God she doesn't read the forums!) and I would want room for both of us. The frame presents the biggest modification hurdle and I don't have the knowledge to do it alone. Fortunately, I can get some advice from the designers who live in Melbourne, about an hour from Orlando.

I can make a 3D model in Autocad of the frame and the donor hull, and I can ask for advice on where the frame can be modified, and what will be needing a revision here or there (he said, hopefully ignorant of the quagmire of choices yet to be made to what is already a perfectly good flyer).

What was that new company making a new catamaran in Titusville, or Canaveral, or somewhere on the coast near me? I would like to give them a call but I can't remember anything about them to do a search and I tossed the Catsailor issue that featured the new boat. Maybe one of their hulls won't be too big.

Vectorworks Marine - Matt McDonald.

Whoa! "Prototype" is always spelled with a $, isn't it?

I will have to belly-up to the keyboard and get started.

Hi all:

I was the Test Pilot for the Tri Foiler for a while when they were being built in Long Beach CA. Before the Hobie Cat Company became interested in them. It was my job to go out and break it. I was pretty successful for a while. Then as Greg Ketterman was able to get all the parts that were faulty redesigned I had a harder and harder time breaking things. He is very careful about design and durability.

It is an amazing craft. It is like taking off in an airplane when it changes from displacement to foiling mode. I had a speedo that read 40MPH and it was pegged most of the time. I think that he changed that to 50 later on.

There was no such thing as coming down off foils either for gybing or tacking if the wind was enough. It is actually easier on the boat as you are going through a gybe at faster than windspeed the whole way.

Later,
Dan

For Jennifer and Dean.

For Jennifer and Dean- Ive been trying to get you 2 together for this for 5 years, then show up with my surface piercing foiler rig too! We had a LONG thread on this subject whenb the boats were new, and had never met head to head. Now the BEST place is in North FLorida at Lake Santa Fe, where 2 Raves live already: Hollis and Doran Oster. Free place to stay overnite too. Deep lake with great wind (like today). However Doran has lost interest because of his A-cat. (Heh, Heh, Heh, my fault!).
PS: I broke my boat at Kelly Park on a sandbar.

So- like when?

Dean,
I have a good Prindle 19 hull I will give you for this project- really cheap!
Dave

Does 'give' have a different meaning in American English then?

Interesting post about testing for Greg K! These boats are just about bulletproof. Most people assume them to be fragile but they have to be robust in order to easily withstand the forces present once they're out of the water.

Bug Man! Mary says, "hi".

Hotdamn! With the offer of a cheap P-19 hull (you got change for a twenty?) I'll have to put up or shut up! I think the Rave uses the same mast section as the P-19. First, I want to as-built the Rave frame onto a drawing. After that I would need to as-built p-19 hull. God, that would be pretty wouldn't it? I hope the final weight wouldn't kill the idea. With my amateur engineering I might end-up with a heavier boat with killer looks.

I love Lake Santa Fe. Big lake, gorgeous Florida cypress shoreline. (See the background in the photos on doranoster.com, click on "Getting It Up" for the foil uphauls that he designed.) Hollis and Doran might could be talked into getting out there for a while if Hollis hasn't sold his Rave. I know he had some lookers this spring but I think they cooled after considering the setup time involved. Doran still checks into the Windrider Yacht Club forum once in a while. Maybe I could drag Mike McGarry (Rave test pilot) up there, too, for a brainstorming session. Jennifer could have some fun and input but it would be a bit of a drive up to Gainesville. Jen could stay at our place in O-town if you wanted to make a pitstop overnight up and back.

I'll stay in touch. I'm sure I have your phone number and e-mail in my address book.

The only thing you might have to worry about hitting on Santa Fe would be the average....GATOR.

Dean: Give/cheap- means I need to be given a cheap ride on the P-19 rig when it is done. The P19 hull weighs about 60 pounds, gotta be less than the rotomolded Rave center hull. Also you better have a really skinny a** : the hull needs some widening to sit inside instead of on!
Hollis talked about replacing the Al center crossbar with CF, but it was all talk.
BTW- Hollis is moving to the wilderness - Bangor, Maine! Moose will be a big change for that Miami boy.

Anyway, Weight is the enemy of the hydrofoiler.

What has happened to Mr. Lord and his bicycle-style monohull hydrofoiler out of Orlando?

No, seriously, I gotta pay you SOMETHING for that hull. I needed to know it's weight, thanks. I honestly don't know how much my hull weighs but HDPE is dense. It's quite a process to take it off. I'm gonna call you this weekend.

I really hesitated on bringing up the idea of a new hull. It's a two-year-old idea. I need to talk to Dr. Bradfield before I go flying into marine software and Autocad. Dr. Sam may already have an alternative hull design that didn't make it to market for whatever reason but that may have been an improvement over the stock hull. He might sell me the plans if such a thing exists. It never hurts to ask. I wanted to give this idea some legs before we move. I had a short talk with Mike McG. and will talk to him again this weekend. Go here for the boring details in a post I made today: http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=788

My Mom was small. I inherited her butt chromosomes. It does comes in handy. Mary's Mom wasn't small. (Just joking as always, Ma.)

I may be right behind Hollis. Canada is looking not so cold these days. We've made one scouting trip already and made reservations last night for another trip.