Personally I think the ISAF youth multihull should simply be the boat that the majority of youth are actually racing. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

"Personally I think the ISAF youth multihull should simply be the boat that the majority of youth are actually racing. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that."

Rhody, can`t fault your logic there, but if you did a survey you might find that the H16 is NOT that boat in the greater scheme. Perhaps it is, but not where I`m from, The Hobie class is not attracting young skippers right now which needs to be rectified. Most of the top sailors are the same guys who were the top sailors in the 80`s. I think the rising cost of equipment is a probable factor.
In Europe I believe the H16 is not the largest class, and probably not the boat of choice of most young sailors unless they want to attend youth worlds, and then it is no longer a boat of choice, but the boat they have to sail.
In the Uk I`d imagine one of the Dart classes is the boat most youth sail, perhaps the 16 or even the 18.
It would be interesting to actually know which boat (worldwide) is sailed by most young cat sailors. In Australia I`d imagine it could be a Paper Tiger / Mosquito / or even Taipan. Or H16 ??
Would be an interesting exercise - we could get someone from each country on the forum to submit results of the national champs of the major classes in their country, and highlight the competitors who qualify as youth sailors.
Any takers ?? I`ll do SA !!

The idea is to get youth out sailing on whatever is available in your part of the world. The ISAF event is only one regatta. The boat really should not be the issue. Lets not forget that Hobie has consistantly provided boats to Worlds, Nationals, US Sailing and ISAF events(16's and Tigers). Why not be happy at least one company can step up and keep doing this year after year.

I don't know who said it in this thread, but there is no way to make everyone in the world happy. The choice here is all about COMPROMISE. There is no other class of boat that can match the H-16 in depth and width of availability on a global level. Sure, it's not the perfect boat for every condition or situation - what is? When you're dealing with youth sailors, you have to remember that there is a big difference in strength and maturity between a 14-year old boy or girl and an 18-year-old boy or girl and the boat must be manageable for everyone in this wide gender and ability range. Sure there are exceptions, but that's not the point. The boat must be reasonably attainable and manageable by everyone regardless of their age or gender.

We have to ask: what are the goals for picking a youth boat; is it availability, cost, durability, ease of handling, ability to practice/teach fundamentals? I'm sure all of these things are taken into consideration and I know there are other boats out there that fill one or more of these areas better than the H-16 and are more exciting to sail. But I can't think of another class of boat that can fill ALL these categories on a global level as well as the H-16.

Here in the Netherlands a few sailors got together and restarted the official youth program. Actually Misha Heemskerk is coaching the youngster and he was a Olympic Tornado campaigner for the 2004 olympics. Before Mitch and Herby won teh Dutch slot for that event. I think there are 4 youth teams in training right now. They are using the Hobie 16 with spinnaker. Somewhat of a sad point is that they make up the bulk of H16's at some of the bigger events here in NL. FOr some reason H16's are not entered into these events with the same numbers as in the past. There are actually more active Dart 18 sailors overhere then H16 sailors. And this does indeed exclude the recreational tour sailors who only enter a regatta at their home club. I think these kids are getting great training by Misha and the other volunteers but the choice for H16 as the boat doesn't seem really attractive from a fleet racing or cost point of view. At least not in the area of NL. The plain H16 don't really want them on their course.

By the way. Misha had a great one-line after finishing up teh westland cup that was pretty much blown away by big wind. None of the youth sailors pulled a kite, while all other racers on F18's and sorts did. Simply because sailing with a kite in big weather makes the F18's and sorts better behaved. Anyway, the youths were eyeballing eachother on the race course and as none of them pulled a kite first no crew did. So Misha said "to the gethering crowd afterwards (after welcoming all youth crews onto the podium) : "Three guesses what will be on the training program tomorrow, my little trainees !? How, to pull a spinnaker. It was actually pretty comical at the time, but he has a point. If you want to win then you must be the crew how goes for it and not wait to see what the others are all doing.

I took a 65 kg 20 year old girl (Dart 18) on my Formula 16 during these westland cup races and she was completely sold on the concept. Spinnaker loads to high, not for that Girl. If anybody was out of breath it was me.

So like Scooby says we should give the youth some more credit. They can handle these boats.



Wouter

In France it is most likely the Kl 15.5 from which the SL16 was derived. KL 15.5 is the official youth boat for French youth sailors.

Even the boulogne brothers (2003 F18 world champions) campaigned in this boat when they were younger.

In the Netherlands the Dart 18 is on a level with the H16 when it comes down to youth activities.

Like Steve says, many of us could be surprised to see an different boat then the H16 score out ahead in the way of youth class on a global scale.

Wouter

Nope.

To get the kids to sail cats (in the UK) we have to find something that looks more fun than a 29er or a Musto Skiff!

That means a Spitfire, F16 or an F18 Simple as that for 2 up, or a Shadow, Inter 17, FX1, (my new beast) or an A class.

[color:"blue"]End of story. [/color]

The kids are sailing the H16 [color:"red"] because they have to to get coaching and/or funding to then get an F18, not because they want to. It's that simple. [/color]

The problem is the Funding and I cannot see a way around it. Hobie do a good job of supporting the ISAF events by providing the boats, but in turn this forces the country's that want to compete to buy 16's (at a similar price to Spitfires etc.

Word!

I think one of the disadvantages a lot of posters on this thread have is that they see things from a national point of view rather than a global one. I gather that mono dinghy sailing in the US is not high profile - it seems that sailors want to get onto lead mines as soon as they can. So there hasn't been the same move towards modern high performance dinghies as there has been in Europe and Oz. And these modern boats are the ones the kids here want to sail. Read some of the UK forums where youth sailors post - it's all about whether a Cherub is better than a 29er or whether they should buy a moth and fit foils or get an MPS or RS700. So if we're to get these guys onto the proper number of hulls we have to offer them something that's at least as sexy as a Cherub or a 29er - or even an RS200. Because if we don't these kids will become the next generation of skiff sailors.

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against H16s - I've had a blast sailing them at Vassiliki (and had the bruises to prove it!). But it's a 1970s boat and this isn't the 1970s. Youth dinghies have move on a lot. If we want cat sailing to prosper, youth cats have to move on too. So what do we need? Not sure the perfect boat exists. Maybe a Hobie Tiger Cub....?

Having just attended a symposium where the focus was how to get get your junior program sailors into your one design class. I thought I would make a few points.

1) They emphasized the social and programmatic aspects of junior sailing.
In the US... the program is Opti's till they are 15 then lasers and 420's.
Notice... they don't mention catamarans.
Notice, that these are not high performance sexy boats.

Personally, I don't know of a Sailing club which starts a junior out in opti's and then offers the choice of a laser, 420 or Hobie 16.

Even if they did…. The multihull or skiff option is not offered in College.

So, this is a major hole in the program! (Now Bob Merrick has noted that this is not that important with respect to sailing skills (and he is certainly qualified to know)… but I have to believe that no sizzle hurts you with kids.)

Second point..
Getting your kid going on a Hobie 16 is great... but you need a "gaggle" of em... This point was emphasized over and over. At the target age… the social structure is critical. Where do we have this going in the USA???

At the US Sailing one design meeting last weekend. the ISAF choice was announced and it did not even register a mutter with the cat sailors in attendance. I think we cat sailors are thankful that Hobie Corp offers the support they do... So… IF, we could find another, Builder, Club, Rich Benefactor who wanted to pursue a different program ... we would try to use those NEW resources to piece together a national program with what we have. (Anyone know what Phillip Kahn has finally come up with) .. Until then... The US program is based in the Hobie 16 class... Will it produce international competitors…. Probably not. We are hoping for a superstar kid to emerge... we are not systematically training youth for elite competition in skiffs or multihull


Final point. the Hobie 16 class understands that most people who return to sailing after an abscence... come back to what they are familiar with... This point was also made by the folks running the Junior breakout sessions.

It amuses me that some see the youth multihull as a stepping stone to the olympic tornado. I thought the idea of introducing youth to Catsailing was just that- to swell the ranks of catsailing, not to push them on to become one of the twenty-five successful representatives at a Tornado olympics.

Some kids can handle kites but 12yr old learners find it difficult on a boat optimised for nineteen yr olds. Dinghies doesn't have the leverage or loading of a catamaran so we can't compare them.

I sail a spinnaker cat a lot. To be competitive, I need a gorilla on the front. Kites are very hard work if you want to be competitive.Its not just the sheet load. The hoist and drop are also very strenuous. On the youth boats, the crew will also assist with the mainsheet, so it is hard work.

Finally a comment on why the spinnaker has not found its way onto the open Hobie 16 class:
Imagine the difficulty of conducting a round-robin world championship for 112 teams on 56 boats equipped with spinnakers? How would the beach crews check for damage to the spi after each race... pull the spi up on the beach in 20 kts ??
The way Hobie does a supplied boat worlds makes it unlikely that spinnakers can be included. The class doesn't seem to want them but that doesn't mean that the class is not encouraging youth.

Mark,

Your comments are all very well for the US, but in the UK, we have to contend and fight for sailors who are seeing fleets of 30 29ers (see here for example at an open meeting ) 29er's are cool. I would probably not be sailing a cat now if 29ers were around when I was a kid, I would be sailing an 18 foot skiff or a 49er ! we also have a good fleet of musto skiff's at a open at the same time.

This was an open at our club to remember Dave Ovi (the designer of the boats who died recently).

29ers are cool. H16s are not.

Spitfires look cool and modern, Sorry, but as George says H16's do not, and the kids in the UK care.

They want to go fast, they want a kite and they want a technical boat to sail.

If we want cat sailing to flourish in the UK (and the Holland/rest of the EU - Correct me if I am wrong Wouter) we need a boat that WILL ATTRACT people to it like the 29er already does.


A little while ago I was talking to some kids about the Inter 17 at the club when they were up for the above open and they were asking about helming from the wire (you could see they were already thinking about the progression to a 49er (not a Tornado) and they were asking "so how fast is it mate"... oh, it's handicap is just a little faster than a 49er, but I cannot keep up in the light stuff, but give me some breeze and I'm lapping them no worries.....

Ok they said.. Still don't want a Tornado. Why I asked.... Oh, no real reason, just so much more to learn after spending so much time on the 29er !!!!!!


Most of the "adults" around the club want to sail a Tornado....

So by not catching them young they go onto the 49er and not to the Tornado.......

Then in later life want a Tornado.....Bugger.........

Mark: As you said, the social aspect with the kids is key. I started to see parents go to regattas last season because of pressure from he kids not wanting to miss an event that all the other kids will be at. I can think of 7 father daughter teams we have in our fleet alone. There have been over 20 youth competing at each div.16 regatta last season. Rochester provided a huge inflatable obstacle course for the kids on Saturday night. The kids know this and can't wait to go there.

It amuses me, too. And you thought right.

Funny Simon, I see the same thing here i Norway. The 49er gets all the thunder, while the kids in 29ers hardly know what a Tornado is. Anyway, they believe that the 49er is way faster, becouse it's the fastest dinghy on the water... Last national championship only three 49ers bothered to show up.

When it comes to looks, the Tornado is not that hot (in my opinion, and I own one), but the speed and the ride is perfect. Sadly, you have to experience it to get hooked. Just leaving the others behind in the dust at handicap events is not enough.

Now, that Blade is a good looking cat..

There's so much fertile ground for comments here! And definitely at least two different threads rolled into one.

As for ISAF and the youth sailing program - it is an admirable goal to provide a path to the Olympic class multi, whether all that compete in that youth program desire to go there or not. It all seems a bit like what happened with the Tornado - the class itself did not want to update the rig and number of traps, but once that happened at the Olympic level the class followed suit. Maybe the thought is that the class will ultimately follow the lead. But it will be tough for the kids if the class doesn't follow, because the coaching won't be there until the adults get on similar boats (but that is also an issue for other designs). As for spin loads and strength - at this level of the game you don't need the fastest and most powerful and hardest to handle - you just need enough to make it fast enough and interesting enough and hard enough to keep learning sailors interested and learning.

As for getting kids interested in cats - I once asked an SCCA racer I was crewing for what would be the best class to start racing in. He said it didn't matter as long as it felt like a race car to me. There were classes that had tight rules and great heads up competition, but the cars weren't cutting edge. His point was that if you chose that class and the car didn't feel like a "race car" to you, you would lose interest regardless of all the other benefits and leave the sport sooner rather than later. Likewise if you chose the class with only one or two high tech cars in the field and running alone was less of a racing experience to you then the same end would result. Sage advice. What does all this mean? We sit around and postulate about what the superior youth boat is - has anybody tried asking the kids what gets their blood going? I think this is more important at this stage in the game for multis. As pointed out some of the leading classes in monos for youths aren't cutting edge, but they're established and the interest is already there. For multis it is not established, and most non-multi people know about Hobie 16s from the ones that are rotting on beaches or from their mono instructors telling horror stories of blown tacks and capsizing. But maybe the answer from the kids would still be the Hobie 16. But either way I suspect it needs to feel like a race boat to them, and there is competition from the mono side.

BTW - I don't mean to bash the 16. I still feel the 14 is the best boat for young ones to learn cat sailing on. As for an affordable and available spin boat for the youth program, I believe the Hobie 18 with a spin (and a few other updates) would be an excellent choice - tough, has boards, tuning options that are relevant to moving up, not as high-tech or expensive, etc. Too bad that's not an option anymore.

Blather mode off...

I am going to be involved in a CISA clinic this weekend on Hobie 16s at ABYC in Long Beach, CA. Bob Merrick is coming out to be a part if it as well. Some other names that are involved are Pete Melvin, Pease and Jay Glaser from the same club. Eileen will be there to address any of the "from the crew's perspective." This is a really impressive group of catamaran sailors trying to hook children on the double hulled boats.

I agree that this is not the best boat to transition from, but it is the boat available right now.

I would like to see if we could:

1. Get more yacht clubs interested in getting catamarans into their sailing programs.

2. Have boats that are light enough for the kids to haul around. For example the 29er is about 200#.

3. Get a good group rate on the boats to be able to promote them, affordably.

4. Promote interested parties (you and I) into buying the boats for the clubs so there can be an instant fleet available.

I know the the SL16 is the alternate boat for the Youth Sailing. I only know a little about it. I did not know that it was not the boat of choice for the ones that will actually be sailing them. I just read that in this thread. If it was not, then what boat most interested them? The kids I mean.

Later,
Dan

I repeat.

Yes, and it is not the Hobie 16.

Did a quick search for Hobie in the UK.

http://www.hobiecat.org.uk

They have what looks to be a well organized youth sailing program as shown on the UK Hobie Class Website. I would love to hear more from the Hobie sailors over there about what they think is going on in their country.



What I have personally seen is teams of UK youth at the Hobie 16 worlds... with coaches. The 2005 Worlds had 3 UK youth teams. I'd say they have their blood boiling about the Hobie 16 and cat sailing.



The website also shows a charter fleet of Hobie Dragoons for training and available coaches. Pretty cool!

http://www.hobiecat.org.uk/index.php?go=charter

That is indeed my take on the situation. In NL we also have to compete with all the kite surfers around. Those guys have some cool looking gear as well and the stunts they make seem to make the youth drool. In NL the youth classes are opti, lasers and even more so plashes and such dinghies. Cats are rarely featured. It is a mistake on the part of the cat sailors.


With respect to 49-er, which isn't big in NL, I can say that there are plenty options that blow this dinghy out of the water. Spitfires, F16's, FX-ones. Sadly the old EU version of the I-17 simply isn't up to it. Main point here is that we are not talking about any expensive space age catamarans here. Must I remind everybody again that a Stealth/Blade F16 go for the same price as a new race ready Hobie 16 ? It is time to put gut feelings out the window and look hard at the numbers. Modern boats aren't necessarily expensive. Formula boats allow poorer countries to build locally while OD classes do NOT.

Maybe we need to rethink the whole setup.

What good is an OD class when that immediately excludes nations like south africa and Thailand due to the exchange rates ? Is that more fair to the competition ?

Would it not be better to put a formula youth class out there or even a "free-to-use" design out there. A design that every local builder can build for his local market. That will immediately allow more nations and teams to get a youth class going and negates alot of exchange rate problems. Why not have ply-epoxy boat compete with a foam-glass one ? Is the OD fetishm of the big nations more important then the needs of the smaller nations with bad economies. This is what ISAF should be thinking about. Screw a 1% design difference if that also means that much more teams can compete ! In the youth class isn't participation far more important ?

Wouter

Does an Optimist get a kids blood racing? I'd say its more to do with what the kid's parents think is suitable.

We have done a poor job of promoting our discipline within the sailing community.

Kids don't have money, their parents do