In case anyone missed it, Grandfathers are predecessors of their offspring. Can't Grandfather anything in that didn't exist at the time the rule was made.
A new term would certainly be in order here.
However, this loose interpretation of Class rules and definition is a losing strategy for F-16 class growth. Formula classes are only successful if the participating boats use the formula. If you don't abide by the rules of manufacture, you should NOT be allowed to participate in the Class events other than sharing a start line or race course.
I have no prob with friendly scoring of Sloop Uni competitors who adjust their sail plan to make use of the classes versatility, Maybe even allowing the A-Cats to race with us on an equal handicap rating, but when it comes to who wins a trophy for an F-16 5 boat+ class event, It is not wise to allow your trophy to be given to either an ACat or the New Cirrus Evolution, or any other boat that doesn't meet specs. Sounds like we could race Hobie 17Sport with a Kite and hang with the F-16 Guys. Or the same with a H-14 with the F-16 sailplan! Too many exceptions will destroy the class, or keep it from ever taking off.
You have to decide whether you want a Formula class or just a bunch of similar boats racing.

Like I wrote before. All wild goose chases.

You guys need to understand the full wording of the class rules before taking offense to possible future situations that the rules themself, in fact, do not allow.

The whole trick is in the fact wether an event is declared to be an F16 event (closed to compliant boats and foundation boats) or an "open F16 class" event, where all dispensated boats may attend as well.

The organisation of each event may make this call according to their own discretion. They may however not specify themselfs which dispensated boats they recognise and which they don't. Only the (local) class heads may do that.

I, as the local Dutch, class head am only considering "open F16 class events" at this time; although I will definately designate a Dutch National F16 championship as a (closed) F16 event.

Now, can we get beyond this issue now.

Wouter

So maybe the real problem, based upon some of these posts, is the concept of the "Open F16 Class."

So Wounter, will the Singled handed Inter 17 (EU spec) always be granfathered into all F16 events ?

Rule 5.1.1

The Formula 16 authority may give dispensations to boats that do not fully comply with the Formula 16 rules. These dispensations are limited in duration and are reviewed yearly . Boats that are dispensated do not become part of the Formula 16 class but of the Open Formula 16 class instead.


I really don't want to be confrontational, bear with me, but did anybody actually read the F16 class rules ?

It is all there for anybody taking the time and making the effort to get acquinted with them. Please, out of respect of the group of volunteers that worked on the rule set for years, invest some time and try to answer your own questions first by way of reading the appropriet class rules.


Wouter

As an outsider looking in, the way you have just put things, as long s a manufacturer makes a boat roughly 16' long and "near enough" to the rules, and is friendly with the local F16 president, it should be able to sail.

The idea of special dispensation to allow existing boats that were around prior to F16 and other boats that may have been made redundant due to rule changes is fine. Making allowances for new and future designs that don't comply with the rules is mad.

Why don't you just have a Formula catamaran class and let everybody sail? On the other hand, can you publish a list of non-negotiable rules, those that are optional and then those that are ignored?

Michael

Hey guys, from the Cirrus manufacturers promotional "blurb" that Wouter printed, it doesn't say that this is an F16 cat, just that by the way that they say it, they are intermating very strongly that it can beat all the F16's (and anything else 18' or shorter) so all the rest of this deviation from the original posting seems very retorical and way off the theme of that original post.

Rule 5.1.1. you are talking about really allows the local president to apply and discard rules at his whim. Other than saying that this dispensation must be reviewed annually, it provides no criteria as to how such a dispensation should be applied, nor as to how the review should be conducted. Is there any procedure as to deciding which boats should be grandfathered and which shouldn't?

This is one area where the F18's have got it right. Either you sail an F18 or you don't. Everybody knows where they stand and there are no grey areas.

Michael

My boats 16ft long, can it be grandfathered?


Gareth

Hey Tiger Mike,




That is exactly what we are. Hence the name FORMULA 16 (= F16) !

Wouter

No, he can not. He can only include MORE dispensated boats to declared OPEN F16 events if these boats satisfy the very clear Grandfather requirements. When he decides to do so then these boats are included for all declared OPEN events for a year. After that he can extend the dispensation yearly of discard it.

A class head has some freedom in how he applies such rule so he can make maximum effective use but ALL THE OTHER F16 rules ARE NON-NEGOCIABLE !

I can't believe I have to explain this over and over to you guys.





That is just BS !





How about paragraph 6.1 in the class rules as quoted in several other posts. Are you that dumb or just trying to appear that way ? Man !





Humm, yeah ! In Europe you could convert a Nacra 5.5 have it measured and race F18 while in the USA you couldn't. That is nice and consistent for you. At least we have rules that apply to every region and that are applied the same everywhere..





There are no grey area's in the F16 class rules, just the perception of such by people who don't read the F16 class rules properly.

Sorry man, I'm indeed running a little frustrated here. This grandfather rule wasn't included on a whim.

Wouter

Well, why don't you apply for dispensation officially ?

I'll announce the result officially on this forum.

Wouter

Thank God, Finally somebody who is using that grey matter inside hsi skull !

Wouter

Wouter,

I had intended to step back and stop posting to this thread, however, after your last series of posts I realised that I couldn't let this lie....

Why, oh, why do you have to treat questions as personal attacks on you? Why do you have to be so patronising and sometimes venomous with your responses? The people on this forum are either existing F16 sailors or potential F16 sailors. Whatever they are, they are also part of the multihull community in general - which is already far too fragmented. Civility costs nothing. Try it sometime, you might be surprised at how much easier life becomes. Sorry, now I'm at risk of being patronising - but you get my drift

With regard to the original theme of this thread and the way in which it evolved, I believe that the 'trigger' was this comment from you in the original post:



The Boulogne brothers have not asked for 'grandfather' status for their new boat nor, as far as I am aware have any of their customers. Yet you felt it necessary to openly state that the Evolution could be 'grandfathered' (oh HOW I HATE THAT PHRASE!)into F16. This has (not unnaturally) prompted people to think "Why?".

Surely the time has come, with the number of existing COMPLIANT F16s, to say that we don't need to grow the class artificially by adopting other classes into a theoretical 'Open F16 class'. For the coming 2006 season could we not demonstrate that the F16 class has finally come of age by doing away with rule 6.1 and its attendant criteria, declaring that ONLY boats fitting the box rule are F16 (apart from the foundation boats - Taipan 4.9, Mosquito and Stealth R) and all formerly dispensated boats are 'out'.

GENUINE growth in GENUINE F16s must be the way forward if this class is to be taken seriously. No matter what you say about 'no grey areas' there is a PERCEPTION that you can sail anything if it's close enough in size to an F16 AND IT IS RATED SLOWER. This may indeed be because people havn't read the rules properly or understood them, but the reason this perception exists is because the 'grandfather' clause exists. In that sense it is a bad rule.

Please note this IS NOT a personal attack but simply a comment on the way I see the 'grandfather' rule being percieved and why I believe it is not really helping the class now. (There is no doubt that in the early days of the class such a measure was expedient, even advantageous, but not now).

Finally, I hope that if you were to re-read some of your invective above you will feel that perhaps you took serious, genuine queries and comments a little too personally.

Step back, count to ten ..... DO NOT RETURN to check if lit

Wouter,
Please forgive me if I missed some stuff during a few periods during the spring, summer and fall when I was not in contact with the forum, but are you the F16 class chairman again or did somebody else take over those duties? Or is there no overall class chairman right now?

Also, what happened to Phill's work on coming up with a membership plan and reorganization of the format for the class to make it more like other class associations?

Again, I'm sorry if I missed some news along the way.

Actually, the source of this discussion was the fact that their Dutch importer/dealer stated on their webpage (go check the original post in this thread) that the evolution is suitable for sailing in "Open Class or F16".

To my mind it sounds like they are trying to take advantage of any benefit that there might be being part of the F16 class, without actually building a true F16 design, and I believe that this is bad for the class.

Paul

You're right in your statement on the content of the webpage Paul. However, I took Mary's query:



in the second post (first response) of this thread to have been 'triggered' by Wouter's 'grandfather' statement rather than anything the Dutch importer might have written.

All,

As someone looking in from the outside. As the Current Inter 17 EU is grandfathered, can I add a bigger mainsail so that I rate (on SCHRS / Texel) so that I am the same as an F16 and then join the Open F16 class ?

In my Current spec, I am approx 4.5% SLOWER (107 vs 102 on SCHRS); if I add a mainsail at approx 16sqm I then rate to 102; can I then come and Play ?

Does not really sound like a good idea for the F16 class IMO.

I think that the F16 class needs to become a true Formula class and only allow boats that are F16's to play at F16 events. If you want your buddies (or nom buddies) to come and play, run a handicap event at the same time. All you are currently doing is diluting the class.

I can understand at the beginning, you wanted as many as boats at opens, I suggest this is no longer the case as you dilute the class.

Allowing the Cirrus in is Bonkers IMO; it was built after the rule, you cannot allow it in.

No, Thank God you are part of the F16 class.

Whilst it is clear from the rules that it is not a requirement that a "grandfathered" boat be designed before the creation of the F16 class, there seem to be a fair few voices on this forum stating that that's how it should be, and that letting in new designs under this rule would be a mistake. I think, perhaps, many of us had not considered the case of a new design being incorporated this way. Certainly, the webpage that talks about the grandfather rule http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/F16HP_grandfathered_designs.html seems to assume that it is only relevant to existing designs (see the "three main categories").

I agree with John on this - there are now sufficient true F16s that don't need to include new ones under the "grandfather" rules. Perhaps the time has come to consider a change to the wording of this rule?

Paul