Who has sailed both that wieghts around 210

Thinking of moving to a A cat.

We have a real good fleet ant Houston Yacht Club.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

I'd like to know the price diff between the two also

Someone else will have to help with the BiM XJ

Here is the Nacra A2

http://nacraa2.com/price.html

Ain't cheap!!!

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

Hey Doug. I went thru the same thing when I was looking for an A Cat, trying to figure out which boat to buy. I wish that race results included the boat type, that would help. What has impressed me since getting into it though is how close in performance all of the boats really are. I do feel strongly that wave pircing bows are an advantage over the older straight up bows but beyond that I can beat or be beaten by any type of boat, depending on the opposing sailor, not the boat. My 2 cents. Ed

I know a lot is skipper. I just wanted first hand experience that was not from factory are a paid sailor. What kind of boat do you have and how long have you sailed it?

Doug

That brings a really good question: Why are the A boats so expensive? Is this an elite club or just gouging?

I don't think it is gouging or an elite club. The volume of A Class boats sold each year is not large. To produce these boats in production, you need molds for the hulls, rudder blades, daggerboards, rudder heads, and probably more items. This is not counting the molds used for the autoclaved masts, as these items are usually purchased by the factory (for those that buy a complete boat) or the owner (if they want something different from the stock mast). Once you have the mast out of the autoclave, then there is the materials and assembly to get you spreaders (Proctor) and diamond wires (Dyform) and the internal downhaul and the blocks and cleats for the rotator and then pay to have someone do all the assembly of the mast. Then there are the materials used like beams, curved traveler, blocks, line, hiking stick, tiller connector, trampoline and other hardware. Don't forget that you have all the labor and materials to make the carbon hulls, boards, rudders, rudder heads, assemble all the hardware to the boat and then package everything to ship it to a customer. There is the cost of the sail to be added.

Most of this is done on all catamarans, but with different materials, however, all the fixed costs need to be spread over a much lower volume of boats sold. Also, volume of any design drops when the next winning design is unveiled. In the end, someone needs to invest a great deal to get the first boat to a regatta. The time delay from first investing in a design to producing saleable boats is significant.

In the business world, A Class boat building would fall near the bottom of the list of things you would invest your money in. It is surprising we have any choice at all!

That is how I look at it.

Amen!!

Somehow we got sidetracked. I am looking for someone at about my weight that has sailed both boats.

Doug

Talk with Lars Guck.

He just got and won with an A2 and they had several XJ'
s up in Bristol.

I do not know if that is the case in everywhere, but here in EU, boats are expensive mainly because they are hand made. Serial productions are not really present (with possible exceptions, I do not know) and this has a great impact on prices. I can assure you that personnaly as a dealer, I may never get rich due to boats selling. Obviously, I know it and do this business mainly for passion. Hopefully we get some electronical, wetsuits, harness etc.. that help us.

Sorry I do not have experience enough on A-CAt to give a feedback on the Bim XJ vs A2 topic.
Jr

I'm not too sure about the limited production numbers being the reason for the A-cats high cost price. Afterall I can name a few other boat types with lower production numbers and heaps more hardware that are seriously cheaper then the A-cats.

I think we must look more towards the basic design of the A's. Scott Anderson says it in that French cat sailing DVD. You have to tinker and continiously redesign the A-cat if you want to stay near the front. I think this leads to rather short competitive lifespans of each individual A-cat design. Pretty much you have to design a good A-cat, promote the hell out of it ($$$) and then try to recover your costs in about 4 to 5 years before the next improved design comes along. The open A-class rules in turn also force everybody to go to expensive production methodes. Carbon right now is on extremely high demand due to Airbus and Boeing buying huge quantities for their new planes. I hear from different sources that currently carbon cloth of the right specs is nearly impossible to get. The A-cats of course were almost 90% carbon. In addition I feel that A-cat have opted for some expensive design features. I still would love to see an A-cat come out with a redesigned alu beams setup and show that it can be just as good as glued in carbon beams. However I also understand that that will not go anywhere as the A-cat sailor don't want aluminium, not even if it is just as good. It makes the wrong statement, most of them feel. It is just like with watches I can't tell the difference in the measuring of time between a decent electronic Casio and a Rolex, still a certain group of people prefer to pay heaps more for the Rolex. Why ? For some reason I don't think that all that gold and silver makes any impact on the time keeping machine inside the watch. I often feel the same way about use of carbon in some catamarans.

A-cats are relatively speaking enourmously expensive. Their is not much on them. A mast, a mainsail, and some rigging. Compare this to the fittings on say an F18 (who are stiffer in the platforms than the A-cats as well and quite close in round the course performance); Spinnaker packages, jib setups add alot of cost and still the A's are more expensive.

Now, I personally don't think that the A's being expensive is a bad thing. Like the Rolex's there is always a group of buyers that don't want anything else. It needs to be top of line and full of expensive technology. Otherwise they are boring or not interested. The A-cat class suits this nice very well and has done so for many years. And the A-cat class has a well established role in the greated scheme of beach catamarans. Often it experiments with things that later find their way in the other classes as well. That is all very good. The problems only come when recreational sailors want to have an A-cat. These sailors don't belong to the first group and these sailors don't like progress and experimentation very much. Pretty much these sailors want price effective (or attractive) boats that keep their value for many years and they want to feel competitive with their boat for at least as many years. All these things are in full conflict with what the A-cat truly is. Everybody wants to have a Ferrari for the price of a Suzuki alto, but the expensiveness of the Ferrari is also what makes it exclusive and thus what makes people want it. So even if the Ferrari company could make them cheaper they will not do for damaging the reputation of the brand and of the products.

Indeed, the A-cat its price and forced use of difficult and expensive production technologies make the A-cat class what it is and it will never become a price attractive class. Neither in purchase cost or even maintainance costs. Both AHPC and BIM tried to market a more inexpensive and more easily producable A-cat than fully blow A-cats. Both failed at that, I feel people just wanted the real things for about 30 % less of the cost to make one of them.

If you want a high tech wapon with all the carbon wistles and bells, then you will have to pay for that buddy ! If you don't want to pay for it then you'll end up on a F16, FX-one or Inter-17 like the rest of us.


Wouter

Does anyone know what the worldwide market for A boats is?
Aren't all cats hand made?
I would be surprised if a cat like a nacra F17 had much more volume than an A cat from, lets say, BIM..

Sorry Doug to digress from the thread topic...

But I must say I am rather stunned by sticker shock on the new A-cats. I almost wish you could buy a new but older-technology A-class from a reputable builder (like Nacra or Hobie or AHPC, Marstom, etc) for less money for us less-competitive types who just want to sail a light, fast boat. But then it wouldn't be a devleopmental class - that sounds more like one-design. I actually thought of looking for an older wooden A-class with an aluminum mast and cross-bars just for pleasure sailing (Not to imply that racing is unpleasurable...)
Oh well, I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too. That is why I bought an FX-1 ("I guess I fall into the group called "the rest of us" as Wouter said). $19.5K US is too rich for my blood.

Doug, I hope you do buy an A-class and wish you the best of luck. I can say that after owning 4 Nacra's, (all bought new), they are pretty tough boats. I have no experience with Bimare.

Steve Bellavia
Hobie FX-1
Sail # 211

Doug,

As an A2 owner, I'll offer the following insights based upon being a previous owner of a Mk. IV and Mk. V Auscat:

1. I think the A2 is the quickest handling catamaran I have ever sailed. The combination of very high aspect daggerboards and more hull rocker make this boat steer beautifully. With proper weight placement, it comes as close to tacking like a monohull as any catamaran I have ever sailed.
2. The volume distribution reduces the tendency of the transoms to drag in the water in light air upwind and downwind. On my Mk. V (which is the Flyer underbody), we found you had to sit on or just in front of the front beam in light air. You can sit behind the front beam on the A2.
3. The boat is very user friendly to sail. I don't think there is any inherent performance advantage versus a Flyer, Bim XJ, or Marstrom but the easier it is to sail, the more consistent your technique will be and the faster you will sail the boat through the water.
4. I have raced four A-class regattas since getting the boat in September. I am sailing faster and more consistently downwind, no doubt.
5. Upwind initially, I felt off the pace with the boat but at the Midwinters, I put in more spreader rake on the Hall mast which evened out the shape of both my Ullman and Glaser mainsails top to bottom. This made an improvement in my light and moderate air upwind speed.

I don't think the A2 is a design breakthrough. I think Pete took a long look at the Flyer design and asked himself how he could improve it, not make a radical departure from it. I think the boat has made a statement with its regatta successes in the last year.

Regarding the BIM XJ, I have not sailed it but two excellent US A-class sailors, Phil Kinder and Ben Hall, have and like the boat very much. I talked to Phil at the Midwinters and he thought some things on the XJ were outdated like the rudder head system (the carbon rudder heads on the Marstrom, Auscat, and A2 boats are a lot better) and using a dolphin striker on the front beam. The foils on the XJ are nice shapes but are hollow and could tend to leak over time. The foils on the A2 are solid construction.

Regarding some of the comments about the A-class being expensive, I won't deny that it is not but the boats are all carbon construction and the price of carbon is very high at this time and that is not helping. Plus, supply and demand economics dictate that this low volume produced class is going to cost more. But considering what you get in terms of ease of use and just pure fun factor, I think its one of the best values out there. And the boats last a long time if taken care of properly (no, you still cannot sail it on to the beach at full speed). They also maintain excellent resale value. I have switched boats twice since purchasing my Mk. IV in 2001. It has cost me $3K - $4K each time I have done this after selling my old boat to a new A-class sailor.

Hope this helps.

Bob Hodges

Bob:

Thanks for info. I think I am going to get a Glaser sail when I get A2 because he knows the boat and will build a sail based on my weight. How do you like it? Did you gt the foam racing battens? If things go as I hope and money I have coming comes thru, maybe I will see you at HYC of Deep South sometime. Get on our site and go in the forum.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

You'll be very happy with the Glaser. Jay will probably make an adjustment to the luff curve based upon your weight and will probably make some recommendations on specific spreader rake and diamond tension.

I'd recommend the RBS carbon battens over the Fiberfoams. They are more expensive but are lighter and will probably last a lot longer.

I'll be in Houston the weekend after next for the HYC midwinters if you want to check the boat out. I've made some changes that Pete is aware of.

Bob

Bob Hodges has made many excellent points about the A2 series.
As a new, imported XJ owner, I need to improve using some sail that I don't presently own. The Zuccoli sail that came with the boat (no choice!) from Italy for lots of euros a year ago was too flat. Woodie Cope who got an identical XJ agreed with me, but then he bought a nice Ullman last summer, then an excellent Glaser sail that got him 4th and 5th place this month. Matt MacDonald (VectorWorks) will have to explain what he is building and selling now, and what sails work.

Again this is development: they ain't no book!

The other older platforms include all-carbon Marstroms- beloved by those who sail them: these folks are now using Landenberg sails with Marstrom masts and don't want to even think about anything else! Tony Ahrens is building nice custom sails here, then there are the Australian sails from Ashby, Goodall etc to match the Fiberform and Composite masts and newer Flyer or older Boyer Mark IV and Auscat platforms ( I don't know much about these rigs). Jay and Pease Glaser like their older Waterats by Pete Melvin.

Bob:

If I have my truck by then (no transportaion now), I will try to hook up with you. What is your sail number? If not, will you be at Deep South?

Doug

My sail number is USA 230. Tentatively I'm planning to go to Gulfport for Gordon Isco's event and it is the same weekend as Deep South. That may change.

Bob