Bob:

If I may ask, at what weight do you sail? I should know by end of month if I can put order in. Don't what the waiting period is for one.

Doug

Doug,

I'm around 158 lbs, somewhat on the light side for an A-Cat.

Bob

Bob:

I hope Glaser sail cut makes up for my extra lbs

Doug

Doug,

A few bits of advice.

1. Time on the water is way more important than whether you have a sail made by Ullman, Glaser, Ashby, Goodall, Arends, etc. The choice of sail at this point is minor compared to getting a boat and getting out on the water.
2. At 210 lbs, yes you'll probably give some performance away in light air against a sailor of equal or better ability. However, I have seen Doug Graf who is closer to 250 lbs sail boat for boat with sailors 50-100 lbs lighter in 10 knots of wind and less. In 12 knots and above, you'll have no excuses. Doug Graf in 12 knots or more upwind is scary fast.
3. The most competitive weight range I think for the boat is 165 lbs to 185 lbs. Anything outside that range tends to compromise towards lighter air or heavier air. If you were looking for an excuse to lose 10-20 lbs, maybe this is it!
4. There may be no class in the US right now that is deeper in talent with several national/North American champions, a couple of world champions, and four Olympic medalists attending regattas around the country. That said, "check your ego in at the door" and be prepared to start a very steep learning curve. A new sailor can have the most fun in the boat because while they may not get the results they would like and their ego might get a bit bruised, they will learn an incredible amount in a short time period. They will find the A-class sailors are extremely open with information on boat setup, tuning, and sailing technique.
5. If you are concerned about the budget for an A2, keep in mind that at your weight, you are an excellent candidate for a Marstrom. I think a couple of the Marstrom sailors in the Houston area may be selling their boats in the next 3-6 months. Call Bob Webbon or Troy King.

Good Luck,

Bob Hodges

Bob:

If I decide to get it, budget won't be a problem. If Doug Graf has no problem with weight then I will just have to learn the boat. I have uni experience, just will have to learn a A cat. I am excited at the way these boats fly!!!! Kevin was RIPPING on Clear Lake. I just like the look of the A2 and from the response I get it is one HELL of a boat. Maybe I can get a ride sometime on one?
Hope to make it to HYC next weekend if I can get a ride.

Doug

It looks like this thread has about ended, so perhaps I can make an hijack attempt..

Are plywood hulls for an A-cat still feasible, or has the minimum weight dropped too low? What if one wants to put a spi on it?
What I am really asking about is: Is it still possible to build a somewhat competitive plywood A-cat at home (I know there are building descriptions out there, and photos, but will they be competitive on a local/national scene).

Rolf,

I know a chap who built a Marmian set of A class (similar to AHPC MK3)back in 89 fitted with an Alspar aluminium mast with an all up sailing weight of 74kg. 1kg under the current min for the class.

The boat is still being sailed.

This chap had built before and knew what he was doing.
Probably not a project for the first timer unless there were very exact contruction instructions including exact quantities and weights for all materials. (BTW:- when selecting cedar I have measured variations in weight of 50% and found the lighter the colour of the cedar the lighter it weighs.)

When you compare the modern shape the Marmian has greater surface area so from that point, in theory, you should be able to build todays shape even lighter. The use of carbon striker straps, (if you choose to have one) carbon beams that can be glued in etc should further help reduce weight. (Beam bolts and striker strap are heavyier than you'd think.)
The only problem is coming up with a modern shaped design that has light enough building techniques.
So I think it would be possible, but there is a big gap between the possible and the actual.
Someone would have to committ themselve to doing and prototyping a design to make it a reality.

If anyone gives it a go I'd be interested to hear how it turns out for them.

Just the way I see it.
Regards,
Phill

Phill,

was this with plywood, cold moulded, or with strip (you mentioned cedar..)?

Rolf,
3mm Gaboon ply with strips of cedar for gunwales and beam landings and stringers and lightweight struss system of cedar inside to stiffen the hull as the Marmian plans don't have anything like the bulkheads specified in the AHPC MK2 and MK3 plans. I think it mentions in the MK2 and 3 plans the hulls should come out at around 20kg per hull while I think you need more like 17.5kg per hull to get down to min weight.
Knowing the weight of ply ,cedar, resin, tapes etc you can get a good idea of where you should end up before you start.
Rather than hijack this thread anymore we can discuss the exact quantities and weights offline.

Regars,
Phill

Track record of the Bim XJ (standard BIMARE platform and mast)in 2005:
first place Italian (BIMARE main), Spanish and Swiss National Championships;
third place German and French Championships (BIMARE mains);
sixth place World Championship (BIMARE main).
In 2006 Phil Kinder (XJ platform) and Woody Coope (XJ platform and BIMARE mast) got respectively the first and fifth place at the Cocunut Invitational and again Woody Coope got the forth place at the NA Midwinters.

Wouter,
Both my Acat beams were $650 from Forte RTS. At that price why would you bother with aluminum beam on an Acat? Plus I can glue the beams on saving more weight, as opposed to build in fittings for bolting the aluminum beams down.

Plus I dont need a dolphin striker.

Lighter, stiffer, simpler, easier with Carbon beams.

My project came in at about $10k, thats including a $2500 Hall mast.

Carbon cloth for the hulls was $800, that was a 2005 price, but its no where near the majority of the cost.

Bill, have you launched yet? If so, how does it handle and perform?

Doug,
You might want to talk to Steve Clark, he has a set of A cat molds made by Dirk Kramers, for the heavier A cat sailor. You are a candidate for this hull at 210lbs.

Steve, Dirk, and a couple of other larger guys have all pulled hulls out of his molds.

Email me at wjvining at yahoo for more info.

Bill

Rolf,
I havent launched yet, as soon as it warms up here it will go in the water. Steve reports that his boat handles very well.

Bill

It all adds up Bill. Either that or the builders are making 18.200 USD - 10.000 USD(as in your costs) = 8200 USD profit on each boat sold.

Besides I will only be impressed when you can offer your A-cat commercially to everybody for 10K. I've heard too many "only ..." quotes in my time that proved to end up squarely on much higher final pricings.

Wouter

When did I say I could offer it commercially for $10k? Come on Wouter, dont be stupid. Its a homebuilt project. Thats $10k without including my labor.

A commercial builder would add in his labor costs as well, but would buy wholesale parts and raw materials, so your response is totally off base and ridiculous, as usual.

You know what, Bill, I've build my own boat as well. I know what costs are involved. And I can assure anyone out there that the notion that someone can homebuild any competitive A-cat for 10K USD or less, without spreading the significant costs for moulds; tooling, test pieces and what not over a larger group of home-builders, is seriously dellusional. I guess you are leaving some more things out as well, apart from time-investment/labour costs.




Well, that is for the others to decide. And I have warm feelings for you too.

Wouter

Wouter:

If you can't home-build a competitive A cat, how close can you come?

I think the prices mentioned in this thread (for manufactured boats)are very reasonable for what you get, but have neither the sailing skill or motivation to warrant the expense. Still, I'd like a light agile boat and have the skill to build it in wood, given a decent set of plans.

So! What say you! How much would such a boat weigh, how high would it point, and how much would it cost?

Wouter,

I havent left anything out of my number, every tool purchased for the project, every part, every bolt, every piece of raw material is in that $10k number.

I paid a mold fee to Steve Clark for the use of his molds and he is spreading the cost for the molds between 10 boats.

So, yes, you can build a competitive A cat for $10k.

Dellusional - no

So, how many man hours? Wharram estimates 400 man hours for the construction of a 21 foot cat. At the risk of comparing apples and oranges, a used A cat is looking pretty good. The prices I've found over the last 4 days run from $6- $10K. If you buy the $6k boat and replace everything that needs replacing, you save a lot of time and have a proven hull form.