Thanks for the support Poohbah.

Again Wouter is mixing his arguements because he has argued himself into a corner over the macro economics of carbon fiber.

What he's really arguing against is anything thats not in support of his class, f16. So, he argues against Acats, carbon, availability of molds, and me.

So lets break this down.

You are quoting COMMERCIAL boatbuilders as your sources. You claim that carbon is "Impossible" to get. This is not true. Go to Jamestown distributors and buy some. Or I'll send you some as proof. Dont worry it wont hurt you. Its not scary.

What is true is that the COMMERCIAL boat builders are finding it hard to get the specific weaves, in the specific WIEGHTS that they want at the prices they are used to, in BULK rolls. Just because I'm a nice guy I'll cut you some slack on this point, they probably said, "Geez, carbon is impossible to find these days." But it was just an expression, dont take these things literally Wouter.

But again our discussion centered around my HOMEBUILT project. Oops, hey I only need 6 sq meters per hull. Not a 100yrds roll for my next 12 boats. Do I really need to go find 3 sources for 12 sq meters to prove my point?

Hey, I'm not lying - go to Jamestown distributors and buy some carbon, its available from a local distributor. What no local distributor next to the tulip farm? Try around the corner from the wooden shoe guy, or next to the windmill.

In the longer term, the supply shortage of carbon fiber and the airline industry adoption is a good thing for us. Dupont, Dow, BASF, and a bunch of other BILLION dollar companies are ramping up production to meet the demand. So in the short term carbon will be more expensive and small COMMERCIAL boat builders will find it hard to get, but in the long run, production will increase to meet demand, supply will increase, and prices will come down. This is what we do in the US, its called capitalism and it works.

Dont worry be happy Wouter, the future is carbon, not plywood.

By the way the Acat fleet in the US is growing like a weed.

40 boats at the winter regatta, with some unbelievalble talent.

Whats the F16 class doing? How many boats in the US? Any Olympic silver medalist showing up at your F16 regatta's?

No?, keep trying, maybe someday.

Sorry Bitch

quality post Bill. Way to stoke the embers

When I was talking to Kevin about buying that carbon tornado, I asked him why he built it, and to paraphrase, this was his response:

"Because it would be fast, and I wanted to prove to Marstrom [a commercial builder] that you could build something using higher tech materials for less than what they say it costs them to build their middle-tech T."

His selling price is evidence of his success in proving that statement.

Gøran Marstrøms T isn't what I would call middle tech. It's pre-preg S glass+nomex+foam baked in an autoclave. The only difference from what I assume you mean by a high-tech building process is the fibers used.

Put the top Tornado sailors on a well buildt plywood Tornado with the same equipment/beams as the rest, and I would be surprised if they did worse than usual. That would be a _very_ interesting test btw!

Often it's not really the technology and money available, but the persons behind it. Just look at Burt Rutan.

I bet Kevin wanted a carbon T because CARBON IS COOL!!!!

Take that Wouter!

Marstrom's stuff is awesome, I havent gotten over my intense desire for a $3k Marstrom T snuffer,,,, because ITS CARBON!!!

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHHEHHEHEHEHHEHEHEHE!!!

YEAH BABY!!!!

HEY WOUTER, WHY DOESNT MARSTROM USE PLYWOOD TO MAKE THEIR SNUFFERS?


BECAUSE THAT WOULD SUCK!

Wow - wouldn't that be cool??? A snuffer that actually SUCKED!!!!

JW - I think thats a discussion best left for other forums. It could quickly get out of hand.

Waaaay heavier. Basalt is a mafic - composed primarily of pyroxene and calc-feldspar with olivine and amphibole. Cheap and abundant, sure... but heavy, man... totally heavy.

I'm patient.

I recall you were just as passionate, if not defensive, about the 18HT class some time ago.

I was a bitch, a luny, a moron and what not else according to you back then. I had a "thing" for the 18HT class and didn't know diddly. You guys would show me wrong in no unmistakeable terms.

Heard the same arguments back then as you are using now, including the various "I'm/we're doing great and much better then you timber boat sailors" accusations. Ohh, you were on "THE boat of the future" and it would blow all others away and to top it off it was full of bleeding egde technology for only a nickle and dime.

It was bleeding alright. To death. As I predicted.

Either that or "The Future" lasted alot shorter then we all expected.

I'm as patient now as I was back then.

Now shall we take this off-line, so we don't ruin other peoples day with this pissing contest ?

Wouter

{silence} {cricket noise}

Please don't

its very entertaining.

I agree, that's what we're all here to read....

Wouter,
Bringing up the HT. Is that all you got? Classic Wouter, deflect, distract, twist the arguement until it suits your needs.

Bimare sold 45 boats in the US. They are still here and still being sailed. And they are still fast. I love mine. Its getting a new main and a new spin this year. I've made my peace with the hollow daggers and the bad rudder system.

You are being patient for what exactly? Please spell it out for me?

Are you being patient for that worldwide shortage of carbon and the subsequent demise of the Aclass? Or that every 2 up spin sailer will suddenly trash their f18 and get a f16? Or that all the single handed sailors will shun the Acat in favor of a spin boat? Or that cold molding will come back in vogue? Or that tortured ply will become the hottest thing on the planet?

None of those seem likely.

Please fill us in.

And no, I dont want to take it offline.

I will, however drop this arguement if you will, but I am certain you wont let me have the last word.

Bill

Well I don't have a dog in the fight... but FYI,

Kevin Cook, one of our local boat bulders just told the T class web site that indeed "there is a world wide shortage of carbon cloth and it sucks for boat builders"

I also know that George Saunders who has bult many an Int Canoe is completing his A boat using the Steve Clark molds but I don't know what his costs are... He has all of the tooling and years of experieince needed to make the boat and it's supposedly under weight and just lovely.

Lars Guck told me that he wouldn't build one AND he is a boat builder and that I should not even consider building unless I was prepared to build two or three so that I would get it right in the end.

So... these are just honest opinions and observations...

Wouter:

I'm very interested in ply/epoxy construction, but I need to digest this information in order to formulate rational questions. Frankly, my concerns are more philosophical than technical at this point. Thanks for your time, I'll be in touch.

Checked the photos on the IC site--nice looking project, Bill! I wish I had the guts to dive in like that.

I have this theory about building your own boat. The chemical fumes are mind altering leading to personality changes - including a compulsive desire to argue on the inter-web.

I suspect that carbon and ply produce similiar effects after long term exposure...or perhaps the epoxy resin is the common denominator.

For evidence I present Bill, Wouter and Darryl.

Bill,
Do you have a photo of your A.
I'd be interesyed to see it/ you can send it via private message if you would prefer. Appreciate a pic either way.

Thanks,
Phill

Building pics can be viewed here:

http://www.intcanoe.us/mygallery/index.asp?CatID=32&Submit=Show&UserID=&offset=0

Bill,

Steve Clark talked about doing moulds for a 'hamburger-lovers' A-cat. I.e. adding some bouancy so the platform could carry a heavier sailor. Do you know more about this, or was it a rumour?

Rolf,
Thanks.
Have you seen any pics of it all put together.
Regards,
Phill
PS:-I just like looking at other peoples boat pics.

Phill,

havent seen any photos of it assembled, yet.
I hope Bill will shoot some when done and post an in-depth report or write an article for "Catamaran Sailor".