How can I best reply to this ?

It is not ONLY about the people either.

For example, I know a good number of sailor who went with the F18 beause it was "happening !", Some of them have now downgraded (as it is called) to a smaller and more versatile design.

A given design can be the best thing since sliced bread but if it doesn't fit nicely to ones dominant use then it is NOT the right boat. No matter how good the people around it are. As a matter of fact there is no "best boat" out there, only boats that fit a particular personal usage best.

It is a great one-liner, but not one that holds a knock-out punch.

Many people have forgotten that I was actually at the cradle of the A-cat growth in the USA. Years ago I was the one who pushed the idea of importing A-cat boats from Europe to the USA back then. Chip Zenke finally got the deal and shipped the container of Bim 2000 and since then the A-cat class has been growing. It is sort of pitty that so many people have such short memories and try to make everything I say as some sort of hate speak. I guess this is just the way it goes in life.

But I do know very well, what the A-cats are and what they are not. In the end the only thing that matters is whether a type is the right one for you and will give you plenty of enjoyment. This point was crucial why I didn't got into the A-cat class personally and why I did get involved into the F16 class. Some will claim that illogical arguments or feelings were the cause of this but they are incorrect. The design simply did not furfill my requirements. I think each must think through this choice thoroughly and without being influenced by "40 boat events" and "happening" selling points. Because they are just that selling points. No-one buys a boat for "3 events per year" and a single "40 boat fleet" doesn't carry much weight if the rest of the year you will be the odd one out in your local area. In the 90 % of the year that you are not at a class event, the direct enjoyment of sailing the boat itself (as in "about the boat") will be heaps more important. In addition to this, by far most of the Florida events are distance races or open class events without a big A-cat presence. That 40 boat event is certainly spectacular, no doubt about it, but it is only one event as an event like tradewinds saw none. This is not a jab at the A-cat class or the A-cat boat, but it will have to be factored in, in our decision making.


So I want to focus on your intended use, earlier you wrote :





The three points of -3- are in direct conflict with each other. Including 2 : the requirement for being lightweight makes the criterium even more difficult. But lets put these down as your wish list. Now focus on your "how will I use it list".

Were do you sail most. Is it a soft sandy beach, do you need to go through a surf, do you want to take somebody along now and then, do you have club races locally, what are your buddies sailing, what are your predominate winds, how skilled are you in beach catamaran sailing, will you be parking the boat on the beach or on your law or are you a trailer sailor ? Are you a recreational sailor or are you looking to become a serious racer. How much are you willing to spend ? Things like that.

Why are these important ? For example ; lightweight high performance boats don't really like to be run up the beach when you have just cleared the surf. Lightweight carbon masts/beams don't like beach side (mast-up) storage or high influx of UV radiation. Extremely efficient catamaran designs have a narrow groove of optimal performance, without sufficient sailing skill you will have a hard time making the boat go; especially downwind. Lightweight boats need to be anchored down very well or a large gust will blow them over; even under mast alone. It is no fun sailing a non spinnaker boat when all your buddies have spi boats. Not all boats will allows you to bring somebody along. When the winds are high in your typically area then high performance boats require a certain minimum level of skill to be handled. Excetera

I'm saying all this will several boat types in my mind. I'm sailing a lightweight high performance beach catamaran myself. One with the same rating as the A's and I can tell you that all these things DO matter alot.

Among others I have both owned a Prindle 16 and F16 and I've used them both much in the way you decribed in your list. From my experience so far I can tell you that the Prindle 16 was the best bang for the buck and alot me to solo sail alot; it was stirdy and very inexpensive while maintaining a good performance (especially when singlehanded). I could run it up the beach or sail it into collisions without a worry. The reasons why I'm now more happy with my F16, despite being more fragile, alot more expensive and requiring generally more care, is because it fills my more serious racing requirements better as well as my personal desire for spinnaker sailing. I race alot in local club races that sees nearly only spinnaker boats.

You should look at your own wish and usage list in the same way. It can well turn out that a less sophisticate design will be much more your thing.

Remember nothing is for free.

You can certainly have a high performance and highly efficient cat but your required care will mirror the same "high" level, not to mention the "high expenses".

Compare it to this. Everybody wants to have a most slim, most adventurous and most beautyful woman (wife), but how many of us are really into investing the required time, money and headaches to keep her.

It is never "about the people" as much as it is never about "The boat"

It is always about the combo of these two and the criterium called prospected usage.


Wouter

I'll profess that it's rare that I make to the end of one of your posts - but this portion did catch my eye. So what's next? I'm expecting to hear that you were at the "cradle of the invention of the internet". C'mon Wout - it takes more than a couple of posts on a website to take credit for growing a class in another country.

Wouter:

Let me try and rephrase:

First I didn't mean to imply that A cat people are better than other people. What I meant was; for what ever reason, A cat people are coming to together in numbers reminiscent of the '70s and '80s. These folks are sufficiently motivated to spend lots of money and drive long distances to sail. In my area, that is very uncommon! For instance, my home fleet scheduled a race for tomorrow which has been scrubbed for lack of participation! During absolutely gorgeous weather!

As for my criteria; they are wholly subjective and I don't expect anyone to value them more than any other personal opinion.

To explain further, the Hobie Wave and Sunfish also meet those criteria, but there is not, locally, the number of participants that the A cats have. Numbers of participants is matter of importance to me, subjectively.

I suspect that for most people, the "best" boat is the one the have now, and will only be surpassed by the one they have next!

Allow me to add some comments to those of Bill. I wish to underline "ADD" here




What the A-cat gains upwind it looses downwind with respect to other modern designs. Especially sailing the A-cat well downwind is a technique that requires considerable skill. Being a highly efficient as well cat rigged design its optimal performance groove is narrow, as with most high develloped boats. World champion A-cat Glenn Ashby described it as "you are either going really fast or really slow". In trapezing conditions the A-cat is certainly touchable upwind. In marginal trapeze and sub trapeze conditions it does have a noticeable egde upwind.





On a reach, nearly all boats are equally fast (straight line speed). I've seen Hobie 16's and A-cats runs together with a good mix of F18's, F20's and others along side them.

And indeed, the course angle are making the difference. Better pointing angle helps the A-cat upwind but the worse angles downwind hold it back. On a reach there are no angles.






How about the efficiency of the Hobie 16 ? On most reaches it would have been right beside you. Reaches are bad comparisons.






The spi setups are a trade off. Both in setup/enjoyment and pointing angles/speed. You point upwind lower with a spi setup but win back alot more on the downwinds. It takes more time to set up the spi but spi sailing is a rather easily mastered speed booster downwind. Spinnaker sailing is a whole new dimension to cat sailing. When you think you have seen it all then try singlehanded spinnaker sailing. It is a bloody fine rush.





Sorry guys, I can't agree with that.

Formula 18 sees alot of development and deserves a place in the listing. It may well even see more development in certain parts then the Tornado. Think hulls, spinnaker and boards. All regulated in great detail, and thus heavily limited, in the Tornado class. Wiht respect to the A-cats. Good development in masts and boards, apart from that the A-cat has not shown much development since the introduction of the flyer hull shape 10 years ago. F18's have seen much more development in other area's. Lets not forget that developping a spinnaker is something the A-cats are NOT doing, same for jibs and even beams. Yes I said beams. A-cats solution to everything is carbon and glue. F18 and other classes are currently developping non-carbon and non-glued beams that result in same performance or better. In the way of sails, F18 is doing its own development independent of the A-cats now.

Certainly in the past the A-cat was THE development class, but since the introduction of the Formula classes the A-cat has been losing significant amounts of this status. Especially now that A-cat class outlaws full foiling and even angle boards beyond any significant angle. Also developments like T-foil rudders have been done fully outside of the A-cat class.

The A-cat class is still a very interesting development class but since the late 90's it has had to accept other classes leveling with her.




Efficiency is great fun but the name of the game is reaching the finish line first. Drawback of efficient rigs is that their narrow optimal groove demands higher levels of skill to be put into speed and keep it there. Before I get flamed by the A-cat guys, YES, this drawback is noticeable in other efficient rigs as well (incl. F16's)

Spinnakers and jibs are great aids to get maximum performance out of a design without high levels of skill. The stalling of the rig (with these) is more gradual and/or much more predictable.

Regards,

Wouter

Once you have seen a A cat fly across the water some of us just want one BAD !!!!!

No one wants to say one boat is better than the other. That is why they make so many different kinds. You are free to choose the one you want. No one makes you get there boat. Wouter you have done a great job with the F16. I just want to make a point that in this wonder world we live in today. MOST of us have the God given free will to decide WHCH ONE we want. That is the beauty of free will!!

Pete join our site and forum. Yahoo Beachcats too.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

Wouter:

I do expect to buy an A cat, and I don't plan to sail at more than 3-6 regattas per year. Certainly I plan to practice but my casual sailing will be on my Tiki.

I've reexamined the decision points you suggest, but didn't find any that had not already been considered in establishing my own, subjective, criteria for owning a boat.

Maybe I should explicetly remind everybody that I've never written anywhere that anybody (or somebody) should NOT get an A-cat !

It is a great looking boat and class. I think I've been pretty clear on that.

Just to prevent any misunderstandings

Wouter

Should have read "... one of the persons at the cradle ..." and there weren't that many back then as you remember. Please remember that I was actually composing a group container deal with sailors like Gordon Isco, Rob Lyman and some others whose names don't come to my mind right now. All of them got A-cats then, through Chip Zenke eventually. I've did a little more then stand on the sidelines back then, Jake. I think I'm allowed to credit myself with being part of that beginning. A modest part indeed, I stand corrected on that, but part nonetheless.

Wouter

I wish you best of luck and enjoyment with your new boat.

Wouter

Ha!!!! Truce guys. Enough!!!!

Lets get back to why we are all in this.

The beauty of sailing a cat in a big blow

The fun of partying with friends.

And just being outside in the sun!!

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2
www.tcdyc.com

Doug; So why the Nacra over the Bimare?

1. I like the look of the boat. It flys. Glaser Sails has experience building sail based on the boat and your weight.

2. It is a US company.

3. There are local hotshots here that have them to help me learn the boat.

4. Local hotshot is 250 lbs and flys. If he can i can, just have to learn the boat and PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.

Doug

Sounds good to me!

Pete:

Send me a email link

Doug
dsnell4@houston.rr.com

you have all got it wrong guys the best boat hasn't been built yet, its still floating around in the mind of a designer who probably won't be born for several centuries yet.

No doubt!

Wouter,
Thanks for your input.



I couldnt agree more.

Bill

no no no no NO NO NO!

We can't agree!

Thats no fun!

The one setup I saw for the Marstrom had holes in the hulls for the poles. I am not to keen on doing this to a $22,000 boat!! How do others feel about this?

Doug

Eh, I have holes in my $2200 Prindle for the spinnaker rig, and did in my $5500 Nacra Uni as well - sailed (and sold) the boat with 'em covered in duct tape, too! The N-20, I think, dispenses with the holes. Ask me in two weeks, when I finally get to see the boat!

Also, Marstrom is the only A-cat to actively promote running spinnakers on their boats. Terry Richardson, in MS, is getting the rig, and I know there are several Marstroms in TX as well.

Sail fast!

PS: New thread? for spins on A's?