I agree that having the brand names would be very interesting, even more when looking at ranking after the first 10th... Most of the "Big event" are won by the same great sailors. What interest me also, is how did "common" sailors performed and on what type of platform.

If you know someone that is performing not so well with a company and sudently he/she gets much better... if this is related to the new combination boat/mast/sails, then every one will get more objective perspective.

I like very much the idea, proposed it to many clubs (here in Eu) but it is still long to change habbits.

Jr

PS: Mary Hope you could get influence enough to change it...

Spot on......

Non pro teams - Boat and Sail Manufactures

The F-18 Association is not run by the Manufactures but the sailors themself....... If you want it recorded, voice your opinion and put it to a vote at the next Worlds.

Nothing.
The rankings or results are not about the manufacturer; they are about the sailors. I don’t think any manufacturer wants to take that focus away from the sailors.
That’s what they have advertising guru’s for.

If you sail in any one class regularly, you pretty much know who is sailing what.

Tracie

I agree that competition is good but, let’s face it - we already have enough of the “Hobie vs. Nacra” kinda thing and it rarely seems to be constructive or good for the sport.

I think it just bothers me more than others.

Tracie

That is great, but it is limited to what you see (or hear, which can be suspect) within your own circle or area of competition.

Key word/s every one

As long as there are different boats, designs, sails etc racing some will want to compare the results and the maunufacurers of those items are going to want to use it to help boost future sales. Having it be a secret only stirs up the contoversy as the information is out there anyway, and having people try and pull it from photos and hearsay only makes for erroneous reports.

The disturbing factor in listening to most peoples interpretation of results is that they only seem to look at the top finishes. The top sailors are going to win no matter the sail or platform. A truer evaluation of competing designs would be to look at the mid pack guys. When someone who always scored mid to lower pack gets on a new platform and now starts consistently placing 3rd and 4th, you now have a much better measuring stick as to whether 1 design may be an improvement over another.

Matt

I tend to lean toward the side of listing the manufacturer brands in the results...however, I think to assume that you can determine which equipment is better than the others by looking at the results is erroneous at best. I was a mid-fleet sailor last year and have recently been knocking on the door of the front pack. I would be pretty insulted at the suggestion that it was the boat (in reality it's the same boat and same sails from a year ago). Believe you me, in most cases the sailors are capable of improving more than the equipment.

And to that note - from my vantage point, new sails and equipment make me better mostly because they eliminate an excuse and cause me to look elsewhere for a performance gain.

I know what your saying. I think were all pretty much sick of that topic, but at the time there were other reasons why that subject was so negative (and Im NOT trying to bring that subject back up).

With the F18 class, Id like to think that everyone could move past the old gripes.

Still haven't read a compelling arguement to move the results away from the teams and more to the platform. To only base your purchase on where a boat places in the results could leave you hanging. As with any purchase you have to do your homework. Results are good, but there are so many more things you have to consider. Things like mast stiffness, sail cut and even one type of boat could fit your sailing style better than another. Non of these things are going to appear in the results! Let's also not forget there are generations of boats, which will not appear in the results either.

This is a fleet about the fleet for the fleet let's keep it that way.

As for the NASCAR anology, about the only thing chevy in the chevy team car is the sticker on the hood and the logo on the team uniform.

In Motocross and Supercross racing results, they list the position, the rider and the bike manufacturer (Suz, Yam, Kaw, Hon, etc.)

The Hobie versus Nacra thing comes about because of disagreements between ourselves at the fleet and national class level. If the builder can convince a fleet or class to exclusively support their boats and conduct regattas exclusively for their boats, they have a marketing edge and they use their leverage!… AND, they always market their boats as winners when they win. I have no problem with this and I think you should brand the boats in this way at F18 events. If this were a junior regatta… you would brand the kids by age. If its an international event… you brand by country. It’s information that people want to know in context of the event… You should provide them information when it drives up interest. If you are looking at the results from the Netherlands, you won’t know the sailors but you would be interested in the boat types and if any other nations competed. If you are sending your results to the local paper… they want to know the town and state of the competitor. (cause their readers don’t know the sailors or boats but they like to know that competitors came from all over the region to their community) Bottom line.. collect the information and generate your results for the types of readers you are trying to reach.

The upset is generated when your fleet wishes to drink the Kool aid and take the cash from the builder because you think this is in your club’s best interest. I disagree with this program choice because this action causes the split in the sailing community since one group will exclude another group. Obviously cat sailing groups around the country have disagreed on this issue and we remain divided on this point and the ultimate impact. This is the issue to be addressed… the boat branding is just a red herring.

In the adult world… the J35 owners are not trashing the Benetau 35.6 owners… they show up and race in class when they get 10 or so and race on PHRF when they have fewer numbers. What is our problem with branding boats by builder and acting like adults? (Now a labeling system for branding would be nice… eg HF18 or NF18 or BF18 or CF18)

Jack,

Of course, I forgot this important point that is sailors "improvement", and this is hopefully happening often. But you have to agree that if you have always been at the same raking (same level as some friends) and just after having changed for your new boat you become much faster... then you can ask yourself why? Isn't it?

Jr

In my viewpoint, changing from Sailors to plateform would not be an imporvement but adding the information such as boat type, year and other information on the plateform could be interesting.

Often, when you read results, even more when looking at results from a country, you have difficulties to understand who is sailing what. Unless you are Top World Famous sailors.
Jr

Mike and Jake,

I think any listing of results that shows brands of boats or equipment violates this rule. Only those who are subject to the rules needs to worry about violating them, therefore, the manufacturers can list the results including the boat brand. Those organizations wishing to run F18 races need to follow the rules.

I think it is interesting to have this information, however, I feel that Tracie has the right idea for the good of the participants. The results should reflect the sailors' performance and not diminish the credit due to the sailors by letting the readers interpret whether it was the sailor or the equipment that gets the credit. I believe the boat or sail manufacturer will be quick to let us know when their brand did best. The F18 Class doesn't need to make this distinction when the Formula is intended to make all manufacturers' boats capable of winning in the best sailor's hands.

Let the credit go to the sailors!

Wow…this is kind of scary…people who live in a free society consciously deciding to be kept in the dark about what would seem to be the most basic question asked after a race.

Beyond who the skipper/crew was that won, what is the next logical question in formula classes? What kind of boat were they sailing? Right?

With all due respect to those who feel differently, I can not understand how such a rule serves any logical purpose. Honest people have nothing to hide…only when there is an attempt to deceive, is it necessary to withhold/manipulate information.

Regards,
Bob

I get the impression that what it comes down to is that in the case of the Formula 18 class, there is an underlying fear that if one type of Formula 18 seems to be winning all the time, more people are going to buy that type of boat, and the other manufacturer brands will die out, and then the Formula Class will die out, and all that will remain is the winningest class of boat, which will now become a one-design class.

Sort of a survival of the fittest scenario.

instead of comparing cats to NASCAR we should compare to other cats.
The tornado has ben sailing for more years than any of the 20' or less formula classes, has one builder been proven over time to build a better platform? Is there a definate preference of builder in the top crews?

i don't know.

Devils Advocate.

Wow! Serious worries! As a fairly new A-class racer,
I am happy to find out who is sailing what, what goes fast and maybe what did not- in this box class! Granted that Lars Guck ran away from the rest of us at Islamorada a couple of weeks ago-- (More power to Lars), we could find out pretty quickly what boat, spar and sail he was going to use. This was available to those attending by asking. Does anyone else care?. But let us know and you can find out too. USACA (US A-Class Association). 4 platforms (boats, foils and crossbars), 5 kinds of sails, 4 kinds of masts...way different from Hobie Cats!

Uh, Dave

we're not talking about Hobie Cats here.

Hi Les

That may be the guideline by the class but it does not have a great deal of buy in by the sailors. For example when sailors registered on line for Tradewinds... they used every combination of the alphabet to brand their boat!

Likewise, sailors puzzled out the data from the NAF18 nationals. It seems kind of silly.

Is this F18 rule historic and given the now world wide acceptance of the rule, no longer serves a valid purpose?

An argument in favor of the rule is "Well it focuses attention on the sailors and not the boat" is simply a matter of perpective... Great focus if you know the sailors... irrelevant focus if you don't. Publishing all relevent contextual info allows the reader to choose the focus.