hey - I am all for alternative energy sources. I read through the transcript of the State of the Union, and there's mention of funding for research cleaner technology. Good. Calling for more innovation on a voluntary basis is painless though. Why there is no demand for legislation that forces better gas-mileage on car manufacturers (just an example of a "hard" measure)? It's not like market forces will make drivers massively shift to fuel efficient cars anytime soon, unless fuel prices really oo through the roof. But that would cause our economy to collapse pretty much - so not an option to let that happen.

<****.

eh...can you just make a stop on the way and drop off that letter in Washington? We'd rather keep politics as far away from our race as possible...

Catius:

No guts, no glory!

How about you all, that are complaining about gas/oil production blah blah, get off your lazy buts and do something about it.

Instead of driving how about riding a bike. I sure do it. It hasnt killed me yet. Goin onto a month now.

Although lets be realistic, I wont tow my cat with my bike blah blah, so save yourself those type of comments. But commuting to and from work is an awesome way to save over $100 of gas every week and a half. Plus the health benefits are off the charts. And a very effective way of helping the environment by having ONE less car on the road. AND NO I am not a tree hugger either.

Remember that such things are generally in terms of fleet averages, so some vehicles will do better and some worse. There have been some recent breakthroughs in Lithium ion battery technology that are very promising for plugin hybrids. Such vehicles would charge their batteries overnight and would have a range on battery power alone compatible with a typical commute, thus replacing gasoline with electricity. Toyota and Honda are already on track. American car markers may be slowly catching on (Ford Freestyle and maybe a hybrid Saturn this year). But none of them have got a plugin hybrid just yet. Average together practically no gas usage for plugin hybrids with more efficient trucks and the results start to look pretty meaningful.


We might all be very unpleasantly surprised in the not too distant future just how little our govenment can do to prevent that from happening. Remember the Arab oil embargo? That's why the "oil addiction" problem is real and urgent.

Look to Norway..(or Europe really, we are lagging behind due to horrendous taxes on new cars)


Fuel effciency technology is already happening, as is public transportation or even *gasp* cycling and walking.. I know, it's alien, but the technology is available. You just dont want to let go of what you are used to.

I tow our Tornado behind a Ford Focus 1.6litres (yes, yes, please spare me the jokes) when going to regattas. Fuel efficient, cheap and we get there fast enough as it is powerful enough to keep well above the speed limits. But it is not just about cars and transportation, diverse industries lean heavily on oil as basis for their products. Weaning them over to other raw materials will be far tougher. If you look around your home, 75% of your things are probably somehow containing oil derivatives. The same goes for your boat and sails, oil is everywhere as it so, relatively, inexpensive.

I commute to work on my cycle spring/summer/fall, it's a nice 12km tour each way.
When my sister was in Miami last winter, she was walking from the beach to her apartment. It was about a 4km walk. She only did it once, becouse she was stopped twice by cops driving by. Why was she stopped? Becouse they could not imagine someone walking 4kms voluntarily and they wanted to help if she had trouble with her car or something. My family which is very sports oriented had a real laugh when we heard this. But if our western society has come as far as that, perhaps we need a new energy crisis to start using new technology (or old, like they bicycle). A new energy crisis might be just around the corner, as the chineese also want to drive cars and consume like we do.

The dutch have some great cycling technology (it's a flat country) and have come a long way in developing what's called HPVs.
http://www.ihpva.org/
http://www.recumbents.com/home.asp
I really want one of those recumbent cycles with an aerodynamical fairing for commuting!

Cotton or flax sails anybody?

Rolf:

Well said! But, the industrial use of petroleum just makes the need for alternative fuel that much more important.

If I remember correctly, an oil field barrel is 41 or 42 gallons and yields only 17 gallons of gasoline. Add that to poor mileage and it is not a very efficient use of a valuable raw material.

Posterity may well be incredulous that we burned the stuff up instead of making things out of it!

Also, I think bikes are great, but I just don't want to ride to work in 96 degrees F. and 96% humidity! Lord bless all who do!

Still waiting for that Hydrogen car he promised us several years ago.

Wouter

Ahhh, those annoying Dutch people again !

Wouter

Pete, put a battery and a electric motor on the bike, and you can ride to work without breaking a sweat. Might be hard to get the air conditioner to run on the battery tough.. Upside is that electric motors dont make any noise. We have some electric cars over here, and they are eerie when they pass you without a sound (and a bit dangerous if you rely on hearing when crossing a road)!

http://www.think.no/


Norway is a net exporter of oil and gas, but even we fear what the middle east regimes might do. We do not have the refinery capacity to produce for our own needs, so if OPEC stopped pumping things would grind to a halt here as well.
Bush is an oil man, bought all the way to the white house (I know this is rude, but it's how he is percieved by me and many others here). He would be very carful not to do any harm to his sponsors and friends in the oil business.

You are probably right in that we will be harshly judged by our grandchildren. Making shopping bags and other things we just throw away is wasteful when we could as easily use recycable materials instead. Some of the worst waste I see is the flame towers at oilfields. They burn off gas coming out of the underground reservoars in such huge quantities that you could probably supply New York with all the energy they need just from what we norwegians burn in the north sea. Taking it on-shore and using it to produce electricity and heating is a big political no-no becouse it would go on our Kyoto quota. Talk about double morals..

I must sound like a tree hugger, but I believe we will see the end of the "oil-age' in our time (I am 35), and possibly witness whatever comes after it.

would you all kindly take this discussion here

I've got a hybrid on order. It's a cross between a Hummer and a Escalade

Rolf:

I'm glad to see some younger people taking this seriously, I'm 57 and have no children so my stake is much smaller.

On the optimistic side, I once read an article about an island off Denmark that went completely off the power grid. I wish I could remember where I read it!

Anyway, it was expensive at about $14,000 per person, but they did it. They rely heavily on bicycles, mass transit and use solar, wind and I think some geothermal energy.

That should be a piece of cake here in Florida! It would be one hell of a cake with 3 million people, but we get about 500,000 btu's of energy per square foot, annually! Combine that with our struggling citrus and sugar industry ( as a source of ethanol) and I think you can see that we don't need any imported oil at all.

Also, we have three(?) nuclear plants and the President's brother, our Governor, wants to fast track more!

For those of you in Europe (this is embarrassing, do Scandinavians consider themselves European- I honestly don't know!?) who feel that they are dependant on oil should take heart in the progress being made in photovoltaics. There is a small German company that is doing some very impressive things. I'll try to get the link to you.

I guess you're right. It never works out well when friends start talking about religion or politics.

But I do want to say that we are trying to keep our 15-year-old Honda Civic forever, because it does get 40 mpg, and it is the only car we drive except when we are towing something.

Here is one part of the whole alternative fuels lobby that makes me NUTS.....
We have a proposal for a very small windfarm to be located about 5 -10 miles offshore where you would think the fewest number of people would ever be effected by it and STILL it attracts the attention of every protesting minority group from 200 miles around.....those that say the clams will be sterile to those that worry about the spoiled view (from shore you will see about 1/2 an inch sticking up). Did I mention this farm is to be located off the coast of the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts? Can you say NIMBY? I liken the discussion of alternative fuels vs. oil to the polls when a candidate runs against "unknown". Everyone likes the unknown candidate till he/she are named and everyone likes alternative fuels till it is named and in your backyard.

Keep sailing till they tax the wind.......
Greg

My theory is that Iran is simply sabre rattling to drive the price of oil up. Iran is suffering under a tremendous deficit right now. If oil goes up $10 a barrel they will be able to pay off their deficit by next year. I've known quite a few Iranian's. They've always been smart people. My guess is they are: 1. trying look tough which is good for their image politically. 2. Driving up the price of oil to be richer. 3. Getting their country out of a bad debt situation.

Mike Hill

Tiki,

Maui is finally getting a wind farm as we speak. It's located above the pali on the way to Lahaina and should generate about 10% of the island's needs. Take a look at the map. It's in what's called a "Supurb" area. Basically, it blows like stink there almost year around.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/windpoweringamerica/images/windmaps/hi_50m_800.jpg

I looked at getting solar cells installed, but for a 6 KW per day system the ROI would be 15 years. I may not be alive that long!

Some states, Florida isn't one of them, will pony up a big chunk of the going-in-cost. It might be worth checking with your local power company, any incentive would come through them.

btw- where'd you get the cyclops! He's great!

Or you get tarballs in your sandy beaches. Those things are *#$$% nasty! My drysuit still has some left on it from Long Beach. Oh crap...did I just participate in this thread?