I just did two alternative energy science fair projects with my kids, one on solar, the other on wind. In my research what I found was for wind, using technology availble off the shelf today, you need a location with an AVERAGE of 14 mph winds, year round. There were only a few USA locations that fit that description, mostly in areas with little or no population, in North Dakota, way up on the Canadian Boarder or up high in the Rockies. I thought the offshore wind farm thing in Mass. was a great idea and would be prefferable to oil rigs, but the same tree huggers who don't want oil/coal fired plants don't want anything else either!

On the Solar, the only place in the US that had "enough" sunshine to make it cost effective was again a place where there is very little population, the high deserts of AZ, NM and Nevada. Florida, the Sunshine State, has too many clouds (the experts told me). So obviously we need some R+D to develop more efficient wind generators that will produce more power in lighter wind (the average in Florida is only 5 mph!) and better PV Cells that will produce more power in less light. Current PV Cells are only 14% efficient, then there is the whole AC/DC conversion thing, and battery back up, etc. I was told that a PV system to take my 2,700 sq. foot house "off grid" would cost in the range of $40,000). Today my electric bills average nearly $400/mo. so the payback time would be 100 months or 8yrs. 4 mos....exactly the amount of time I have been living in this house!

So, where does the money come from to do the R+D? How about a 100% oil/gas tax like they have in Europe already? That would be a very strong motivator to park the SUV and take the Bus! Or buy a sailboat instead of a Jet Ski!!

Also, the state of NJ offers a 70% rebate to those who purchase solar systems! Florida is just now (2006) offering a 30% rebate. I tried to buy some solar panels from BP Solar, they are sold out! NJ's got them all because of the rebates!

Still, why is there not more development of alternative auto fuels, such as bio-diesel, ethanol, etc? Seems we could solve two problems at once; put American Farmers back to work growing soy beans, corn and sugar, and lessen our dependance on the Middle East.

It won't happen without LEADERSHIP in WASHINGTON, and those guys are bought and paid for by the OIL INDUSTRY and MIDDLE EAST LOBBIEST, so don't hold your breath waiting for any new developments. What's it been since our first "Arab Oil Crisis", about 32 years? Seen any -less- dependance on Arab Oil? We were supposed to be driving 40 mpg autos by now, but 8 years of Reagan + 4 of Shrub #1 repealed those laws.

It's all about money, paid to politicians, there is no lobby money in "Alternative Energy" The Sun and Wind are free, so no kickbacks, compared to the all-mighty Oil Lobby. Do you really think Bush 2 meant a word of it?? It's all about the money!

Why is it that we can't generate power from the tides and/or the major currents, like the Gulf Stream?

Mary-
I remember seeing something on maybe the Discovery Channel about using long sections of basically metal logs that float off of England. They would be lined up perpendicular to the waves and the wave motion would flex at the joints generating electricity. Thought that was interesting, but obviously complicated and probably not very stable.

I've seen wave generator concepts that have a float in a cage. The float goes up and down in the waves and through some mechanical leveraging, turns a wheel/generator. Seems relatively simple but the scale would have to be large to get any significant power out of it. Added to that the fact that the distance near shore where the waves stand up high vs. break can change dramatically from day to day.

Timbo - things are looking up for solar. There are now triple-junction cells that are over 35% efficient, and bigger gains in the works. These cells work in conjunction with a concentrator, so maybe not a good solution for the average homeowner's roof, but a step up for big solar facilities. More info at - http://www.spectrolab.com/prd/terres/cell-main.htm There is indeed a shortage of silicon need to make solar cells, but some manufacturers have committed to increasing capacity. This is an indication of real demand.

Mary - just google "tidal power" and you'll find more than you ever wanted to know about it. There are tidal power plants in operation, and more under consideration. It's all about choosing the right locations.

I am afraid it is a little bit too late for this. According to scientific reports and because of the global warming melting the artic ice, there is a serious chance to see the gulf stream shut down, which would be a catastrophe.
But, I know, some people here thinks that global warming does not exists (the same who do not want to spare oil). Wishfull thinking I guess...

Okay, Jeff, I googled tidal power, and it sounds like they are trying to use traditional hydroelectric power technology, adapted to tides. In that case, Mexico should harness the Sea of Cortez, which has a huge tidal range.

But I was thinking that since most of the Earth is covered by water, and since most of that water is constantly in motion of some kind, there should be a way to harness all that incredible power without creating artificial waterfalls.

And in addition to the motion of the ocean, there is also the weight factor of the water that could somehow be used to generate power. No?

I don't think enough resources are being applied to thinking out of the box to come up new ideas.

As far as cars, I don't know why we can't have electric cars (or hybrids) that are self-recharging by having a small, efficient (and aerodynamically-styled) wind turbine on the roof. Seems like it would generate a lot of electricity for the batteries when it is going through the air at 60+ mph, and, therefore, extend the driving range of an electric car.

Maybe all this has already been considered, but I don't have time to google everything.

Mary, the drag caused by such a device would probably negate any benefits it could provide.

Meaning, it would cause more electricity to be consumed due to drag than it could produce.

I KNEW somebody was going to say that, but I think there are ways to overcome the drag problem.

There is and it's called the "fourth mode".

The problem with diffuse energy sources such as waves and gentle currents is that the more diffuse the source, the bigger the machine you need to capture a useful amount of energy. Same as sailing - small sails in heavy wind, big sails in light wind. In the energy biz, bigger equipment is almost always more expensive, and that means a poor return on investment. There's a huge amount of energy freely available in the world, but most is spread out too much to capture efficiently. Even the more concentrated sources such as sunlight in the southwest and winds in some of the northwestern states are not constant so they can only supplement a baseline generating capacity. Sometimes this can be advantageous such as in the southwest where peak sun corresponds to peak air conditioning, but in other cases the energy would have to be stored so it can be released when needed, which is another big expense. All of these things are doable, at a cost. There's a lot of work going on to figure out how to make just about any energy source you can think of cost effective.

Unfortunately, the propellor on the roof of a car makes no more sense than mounting a fan on the transom pointed forward at the sails to drive a sailboat - the push backwards from the fan would balance the push forward from the sails.

There is some incentives in Hawaii but it's still not enough to make the pricing and ROI attractive.

Wind power is an alternative but I live in an area that's controlled by a homeowners association. They are death on any type of tower. Plus, the county has an absolute height limit of 30 feet for anything. I'd mount the wind generator on the roof but I understand all of them generate a lot of vibrations that drive people nuts. Oh well.

The cyclops is one of the main characters from the movie Monsters INC.

OK I'll jump in! I happen to be one of the people that supports Cape Wind. I totally agree with Timbo and Greg that it's a far preferable idea than the current alternatives(Coal + oil). We had been fighting to get EPA compliance at the Somerset(?) power plant for many many years. The EPA and Feds finally put their foot down and it looked like we'd won the battle. Then our president stepped in and "pardoned" the power company, saying compliance would create undue financial hardship! How about all the thousands of people with asthma downwind of the plant? I'd say they suffer considerably more hardship! That doesn't include the dirty soot that everyone downwind has to contend with...He then found some way to withhold federal funding from states who don't meet EPA standards! Sweet revenge on the Peoples Republic of Mass! As for Tar Balls, you guys should've been in Buzzards Bay after the drunks ran aground for our last oil spill! It was nasty!Remember President Carter signing into law the requirement for oil tankers to be double hulled? Too bad the Republicans scrapped that. It would've saved a lot of oil, and a lot of wildlife. These problems are the result of two things, lack of personal responsibility, and greed. Somehow they manage together quite well. As for "viable alternatives", I have mentioned in the past the use of vegetable oil to run diesels, and now my friend heats his Diner with it! It is real and it is now!

Hybrid cars exist. The regular (gas) engine also charges the battery when it's running.
Having a windmill on top of the car would not be very efficient, but an alternator/generator attached to the engine is quite efficient. You still need to charge the batteries overnight, but they last longer this way. Gas engine shuts down automatically when the electric drive engages, and I have heard that the car is actually nice to drive.

http://www.toyota.com/prius/

Harnessing wave power has been tried with land installations, but without much success so far. Taking advantage of currents can be risky, you dont want to change them. Also, the fishermen dont like large underwater installations..
The latest plans I read about, was to put some large underwater 'windmills' on the bottom.. Wonder how they will maintain them and keep seaweed off them.

Please dont shut off the gulfstream yet, that would mean a new ice age here in Norway.

Mary, re. the wind turbine on the roof, why not some very high tech, super efficient solar panels on the roof, the hood and trunk lid instead? All power, no drag, and keeps the batterys charged up while parked in the lot all day. That's what we need. And could one of you guys from Europe post some info on those cute little "Smart Cars" I see over there?

Like; what do they cost, how fast are they and what kind of gas millage do they get? I have heard there is someone about to import them to the US. I'm ready! Are they made by Mercedes Benz? Thanks.

Also, I thought I read that in Brazil they are building sugar refineries to ethanol and runnning their cars on it, 100%, not a blend. Anyone from Brazil know more about that?

Alternatives:

[color:"red"]Hybrid cars with battery packs[/color] that can be charged overnight. There is an added option for hybrid cars. It is not manufacture approved. You put a bank of batteries in a hybrid with a management and charging system. You can plug the car in over night and do not have to charge the battery using gasoline. The amount of energy used to charge the batteries on the grid is way more efficient and cost effective. There is still pollution involved as you are taking it from a power plant but much less. You will still have the Hybrid capability for places that you find not extension cord.


[color:"red"]How about a car that runs on vegetable oil?[/color] Take a diesel automobile, any of them. Add a second gas tank that can be switched into the fuel flow. Use the cooling system to heat the second gas tank so you can get the oil thin enough to run through system. Start and end the running of the engine on the diesel fuel but in the middle switch the thinned oil. Make it switch automatically so you do not have to think. Vegetable oil in bulk is less than $1 per gallon and gets the same mileage per gallon. This system already exists and can be about $1000 or less to install.


[color:"red"]How about Thermal (not solar) Voltaic Cells?[/color] I have not heard of getting 35% efficiency out of Solar Voltaic Cells. Most of them you will see at about 8%. Military is up to 12% maybe more by now. 35%! Wow, love to see it! Thermal Voltaic is same principle as Solar but uses heat differences to instead of catching suns rays. These will work anywhere, even at night. They are cheap to make and can be stacked. Today they are not available. I was trying to put a group of people together to buy the patent but was too slow. I think it went to someplace like Korea. The inventors live in Texas and talked with them on the phone at length about it. I am still trying to find them.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Later,
Dan

[color:"red"] [/color]

I am in no position to argue with people who have engineering knowledge, but I don't think that analogy applies, since a car is not being driven by wind as a sailboat is. (Again, I know I am going to be shot down on this.)

I was visualizing a flat (horizontal), and very efficient wind turbine in a very low-profile, aerodynamic casing, maybe molded into the roof. Or it could even be contained within the front of the car itself, rather than on the roof. Isn't air going into the engine compartment through the grill anyway?

What I am thinking about shouldn't increase drag any more than a side rear-view mirror. So eliminate one of those to compensate.

Some inventions would never have happened if the inventors listened to the people who said, "It can't be done."

Here's another one. You could have pedals inside your electric car so the passengers could pedal while you are driving and keep adding electricity to the battery. And get exercise at the same time.

Sorry, but it's fun for me to think about all these things.

Timbo,

I can only point you to the norwegian electric car "Think": http://www.think.no/
Is this the one you are thinking about?

The city model had a 85km range, and cruised in 80km/h (our speed limit). All electric. Cost, about 120.000NKr, or US$18.000,-
Ford bought the company, but pulled out again after a while. They tried to market them in the US, but was not succesful. I dont think they build anything just now, but are looking for capital.


Experimental cars have driven across australia just on solar power. Clouds, dust and general lack of sunlight are the major problems.
Ethanol (yes, the stuff you can drink) can power cars easily, as can lots of biological oils. Oil from boiled fish livers was used in car during WW2.. Most modern cars can run on ethanol with small modifications. Just need the infrastructure to support gas stations and farming for potatoes and sugar. As most western countries are shutting down their farming capacity, this could save a lot of jobs. Wonder what the price pr. mile will be on pure alcohol. I know they use ethanol as a 50/50 substitute in Sweden for their cars, and the ethanol is cheaper than gas.. (about US$2 pr liter I think, same as here)


While going trough technical checkout/qualifications on the norwegian main battle tank (Leopard) we was tought that in need we could run the engine on everything from the aforementioned boiled fish liver to soya oil. Engine was a 70's Mercedes marine diesel. It would not be as efficient/powerful, make lots of soot and stink. But it would propel the tank. Never had to try it, fortunately.

Check this:
a tidal powerplant

http://www.edf.fr/html/en/decouvertes/voyage/usine/retour-usine.html

"In November 1996, the tidal power plant celebrated its thirtieth anniversary of operation. The unique forerunner project that started in the 1950's has turned out to be a technical, industrial and economic success.

For 30 years, the 24 turbines of the Rance facility have shown outstanding reliability. The power plant has operated without major incidents or breakdowns for 160,000 hours and generated 16 billion kWh at the price of 18.5 centimes per kilowatt-hour, a highly competitive price and one that is lower than Electricité de France's average generation costs."

Mary,

It breaks down like this: a vane driven wind generator creates power by redirecting / slowing down air as it passes through the vanes. It literally takes energy from the moving air and transfers it to mechanical motion and then generates electricity from it. Conservation of Energy (physics term) is a physical property of any closed loop energy system. It's just like pouring water between two buckets where you can't pour 1 gallon into the second bucket and get 2 gallons. You can only get 1 gallon in a perfect pour - you'll probably get a little less because of a drop or two spilled or evaporation.

If you divert X amount of energy from the moving air, you can only create "X-losses" amount of energy in electricity. The losses (which can be pretty signifiant) mechanical and mechanical/electrical energy leaks ... i.e. "spillage" that mostly comes from friction and is the energy lost by converting it to heat. The heat generated from the moving parts is energy lost from the vanes in the generator and the electrical energy that comes from the system is actually less than the energy being pulled from the moving air. There are other losses associated with the conversion of the mechanical motion to electrical energy.

Looking at the big picture of the closed system, in order for the blades to spin on a wind generator, they slow down the passing breeze by redirecting it's flow. There is a backwards push on the generator roughly equal to the amount of energy that it's extracting. This backwards push is creating drag on the car moving down the road that is at best, equal to the amount of energy being pulled from the moving air - the bucket thing again. If we could figure out how to extract MORE energy from the air than is lost in drag, you would have created the equivalent of a perpetual motion machine in that it actually has found a way to make 1+1 = 3. (which is thusfar proven impossible). Now that I made that really confusing...any questions?