Slow down there Tiger, you are putting words in my mouth. I said I got OUT of the US military because I didn't agree with our forign policy. I'd rather sail and drink beer than blow up other countries, trying to force democracy down their throats. By the way, why isn't Bush trying to force Democracy on the Saudi Royal Family?? And anyone who has not served in our military is not qualified to critisize it because you have no idea how it really works, you only know what you see on CNN, which is usually 180 out from reality. John Kerry had every right to critisize it, Bush however, only used it to duck Viet Nam and never really served! When is Bush going to send his two daughters to Iraq?

http://www.break.com/index/presidential.html

Here's our fearless leader now!

But I digress... It would not make me cry to see Isreal defend themselves from the Arabs, with nukes if need be. If Iran and Hammas say they will not allow Isreal to exist, what do you think it's going to come to?

Do you really believe that any country throwing nukes around is a good idea. One nukes the other, they hit back. Radition posioning for a vast area.

Not a good idea.

They just have the little nukes. We have the big ones... And...I said DEFEND themselves, as in retaliate, after Iran shoots their one nuke.

But, it could always end up like this: http://funnyjunk.com/pages/world.htm

Sorry about those Kangaroos...

it would get really complicated if they used nukes and I don't think they would unless they were under direct threat of invasion with a strong chance of losing the war. But, we would never let that happen anyway so it is a non-issue for them to use nukes.
I for one, sort of agree that it might be interesting to see a big knock down drag out fight though to settle the whole thing (but this probably wouldn't happen and wouldn't "settle" anything anyway)

BTW- do you realize that this is the 2nd most "replied-to" thread in the catsailor forum.. and it doesn't have anything to do with sailing..

Yeah, it's amazing everyone can get whipped up into a frenzy over politics and we aren't even politicians! Too bad we can't get Politicians whipped up into such a frenzy over Sailing!

Lets cool down with some german humour (yes they have humour!).
http://jm.slove.org/gc/

Whew! Another lengthy Wouter post; this time I must respond, since it is a rebuttal to my post. Mary is right, if you don't want to read political discussion, go to another post. I also find it interesting to read the views of others around the world.

As you often do, Wouter, you rebut by taking away any nuance from another's point and recasting it in a absolutist light before stiking it down. You re-create the argument into a caricature in order ot set up an easy target.

First of all, I never referred to any absolute freedom; I'm not an anarchist and I certainly understand that individuals have a compact with each other to live together in society and such a compact involves giving up some level of "absolute" freedom. It is obvious that absolute freedom would create a situation that results in generally less personal freedom for most.

The settlers you mention did live hard lives and for the most part chose them for greater freedom and greater economic opportunity. Most of them were quite committed to independence and self reliance; they wouldn't have made it on any frontier without such attibutes.

We differ in degree; you prefer to give up more freedom for a greater sense of security(?) or support and I prefer a greater degree of freedom because that allows me to accomplish more in my personal and economic life. [Personal note; I am in business for my self and have been so for my whole career.] My truism remains true in spite of you're attempt to caracturize it to knock it down. The more centralized one's economy, the less individual freedom one has. Let me add another one (the famous Lord Acton quote), power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Decentralized power and less central planning (all to a point, not to anarchy, dear Wouter) are better than the opposite. A last thought is, have you ever really examined the typical politcian and the bureaucracies they form? I don't think anyone would seriously want more of that.



So are you using the Dutch methodone support program as your example/argument against less government control over our lives? I am not familiar with your program, but we have similar ones here in the US that work to varying degrees (I am not familiar enough with them to argue the point). That example is not what I would call a refutation of my point. There has always been and always will be drug addicts in society. One could make a good argument that they need more than a drug maintenance program coupled with some counseling. Do any of these people get better (get off their drug addiction and become productive members of society) even in some small way? They may not commit crimes and that's a benefit, for certain, but the program may be only limited to ,that. AA adherents will tell you that counseling will only go so far; true release, or just protection from addiction must come from a change within. This thought will lead, inevitably to a theological discussion which won't serve our purposes here.



First. We may incercerate more per capita than any other nation but absolutely not more than all other nations combined. I'm surprized that you would express such an obviously false claim; you're smarter than that. Just put China into the equation and you can't make that claim.
Second. This fact you state has very little to do with my point about the rule of law used to reign in capitalistic activity and keep it reasonable fair (mind you, nothing in a competitive situation is completely fair).
Third. You should take more time to visit our country; its not as ruthless as you might imagine. It is full of economic activity, even among the poor. You comments below re: "the projects" and "Snoop Dog" are examples of entrepeneurship, unfortunately outside the law and most don't make the transition to legal activities like Snoop. Most end up dead by their peers as they don't follow the rule of law I talked about and include killing as a method to gain competitve advantage. I think they make my point.


Here we go again, setting up an extreme example in order to knock it down. Its not only about Bill Gates. Yes, most small businesses fail in the fist two years. Many people who start up businesses do so repeatedly until they are successful. Education is important, but doesn't really reflect on the core of this discussion.


Again, the extreme to discredit my point. This is so laborious, but, I hope, in the end somewhat instructive. Deuterium from the sea to fuel fusion is in the same category as the Alberta oil sands? Ridiculous and you know it. Don't lose credability by making such statements. One has yet to be accomplished except for brief moments in a lab the other is occurring in an economically profitable way already. Wouter!
My point is that there are reserves to get us to the next technologies. And the flex fuel technologies I'm talking about are at our doorstep, so to speak. They are not theoretical concepts that are not yet feasible, such as fuel cells.

Not a bad idea; along with the mandated flex fuel cars.



Quote:
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The US should mandate that the auto makers achieve flex fuel capability on their fleet within 2 to 3 years.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Ah, you caught me! Actually government can play a limited role (remember not to take my points to an extreme like you have done above). Government should create some incentives, mandate some directon and let business make it happen. The mandated fuel averages are an example of this (and also an example of our progress contrary to your assertion), however, they had an unintended consequence the government planner didn't plan on and that was an increase in highway fatalities due to smaller, lighter cars being put on the roads.


See above reply

In the end, we discussed at length Capitalism versus Socialism where we do disagree to a large extent.

We can all agree that a multifacited approach to the energy crisis is necessary. Large problems are not solved with simplistic solutions. Conservation, new oil resources exploited, nuclear power, new fuels used for the world's fleet of vehicles, new energy alternatives continued to be developed to the point they are economically feasible and somewhere, down the road, a transition to a post, oil fueled world. This all has to happen. Yes, our government and many of the world's governments have not faced the impending crisis. Our government, in spite of its problems however, is not entirely immune to the will of the people. When enough people make energy solutions an issue, our governments will begin to address the issue. Each one of us must keep clamoring and making our demands heard by our legislators. This crisis of radical Islam is going to add incentive to find solutions, if for no other reason than to lessen the transfer of wealth to the mid east.

I promise (to myself as well as everyone else) to avoid such lengthy posts. Wouter, I agree with Timbo; get a girlfriend or wife and make some babies. The more babies, the shorter teh posts. I've done my part, now its up to all of you younger guys. Sailing and making love; what a combination!

DavidN
H20 781
Spring will be here soon.

David, you lost me at Hello.

HAH!!

How about we talk about sailing now

We are almost at 200 posts.. How many other threads have gone as far, this fast?

OK Guys;

Record set. BACK TO SAILING PLEASE !!!!!

Doug

Wouter:

When is gasing any civilian population nonsense!? The act is so barbaric it is outlawed even on military targets.

This last post of yours supports my premise that nothing America does is acceptable to you.

If you can, please name one thing America has done that you consider acceptable.

Pete:

Wouter's point what that the kurds were gassed with the US support (US was providing Saddam with money and weapons at this time). So invoking the kurds gas episode to justify iraq invasion is hypocritical.

Rolf:

I would not be comforted if you, the Danes or anyone else were the victims of terror attacks. My local paper printed similar cartoons just this morning. I get this sinking feeling we're spiraling into an abyss of bloodshed of historic proportions. . .

I couldn't care less if we are surpassed by India and China; then maybe everyone would be mad at them.
btw- a lot of Indian trained MDs are leaving the U.S. and going home. That is their right, but we'll be hard pressed to replace. They'll be missed! I know one of them, a fine decent man.

You can't really believe our military response has been as harsh as it could have been!

I'll get back to the rest of your post anoter time, I'm too tired right now! ( Had lunch with a really great sailor! This guy has seen and done it all! Gave me lots of good tips related to the A cat. Nice, nice man. I really have A cat fever now!)

48s!! How old do you think I am? Hell, the M-48 was. . .the tank I trained on at Ft. Knox. I left Germany in January '70 we were using the M-60, the Leopard had just come out, only saw a few of them.

This thread actually serves a good purpose. It keeps most of the political discussions, flame wars, nonsense and ideas, good and wacky, in a single place. If you don't want to read it, don't click on the thread.

Pete, I, for one , think the best thing America did for us is giving us Hobie Alter. His boats changed my life!

Arend

(isen't this a nice bridge going back to sailing?)

I agree; parsing to the extreme. Winter does strange things to people. My apologies to everyone.

It should be noted that this thread has been surprisingly polite for a political discussion.

DavidN
H20 781
Come on springtime!

My God! That loud cracking sound is Hell freezing over! Someone has finally said something good about America, or more precisely, one American.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Does this mean we should all become California surfer/sailor dudes . . . I'm in!

Nonsense! I'll have to see irrefutable proof before I believe that!